Mcebisi Jonas joined Prof JJ Tabane on ‘Power to Truth’
for a compelling discussion about the state of South Africa
In a period marked by political turbulence, socio-economic stagnation, and widespread institutional decay, South Africa faces a defining moment in its democratic journey. The promise of 1994 has, for many citizens, not yet materialised into tangible change. Instead, the nation finds itself grappling with systemic inequality, rampant corruption, and a leadership vacuum across key sectors.
Mcebisi Jonas stands out as one of the few voices advocating for urgent national reform. Having served as South Africa’s Deputy Finance Minister, Jonas was thrust into the limelight as one of the key figures in exposing the State Capture scandal. His first-hand experiences provide a unique and candid perspective on the systemic failures that continue to plague the country.
Through his unflinching critique of leadership, governance, and economic mismanagement, Jonas calls for a comprehensive overhaul rooted in ethical leadership, accountability, and a long-term vision for the nation.
He joined Prof JJ Tabane on ‘Power to Truth’ for a compelling discussion about the state of South Africa’s political economy, the legacy of state capture, and what it will take to turn the country around. His perspective is not theoretical, it is rooted in lived experience at the highest levels of government, offering not just critique but a roadmap for renewal.
Reflecting on the Zondo Commission and your role in exposing State Capture—how do you define what really happened to South Africa?
I think we must understand that what happened in the State Capture era was not just corruption. It was the repurposing of the state. Institutions like the National Treasury, SOEs, and the intelligence services are institutions that were redirected to serve the interests of a few individuals and their networks. When I testified, it was not to expose individuals but to show the systematic nature of the capture.
The incident with the Guptas offering you R600 million to become Finance Minister is well known. Can you take us back to that moment and what it symbolised?
What happened in that meeting was shocking but also very revealing. They told me upfront: “We control everything—the Hawks, the NPA, even the President.” It became clear that this was not about offering me a job but it was rather about asserting dominance over the state. I said no immediately. It was never about the money. I knew this was about whether we allow the state to be handed over to private interests.
What does the fact that the Guptas claimed to control the NPA say about the state of our justice system at the time?
It showed how deeply compromised the system had become. The NPA is meant to be an independent body that protects the rule of law in South Africa. But at that point, it had been turned into a political tool. That’s why rebuilding trust in our institutions is so crucial. If our people don’t believe that the justice system works, then the social contract breaks down. Accountability must be restored for democracy to effectively function.
Why do you think so many others in the system said yes instead of no?
The reality is that the political system became dependent on patronage. Loyalty was no longer about service to the public, it was at a point where it was more about networks of power and access to state resources. People were compromised in so many ways, including financially. Unfortunately once you’re in, it’s increasingly difficult to break free. That’s why rebuilding institutions must go hand in hand with rebuilding values.
You’ve said before that businesses were not innocent bystanders in State Capture. Can you elaborate?
Absolutely. One of the myths we must dispel is that corruption is only a government issue. Major companies benefited from the looting, it benefitted both local and global enterprises. From auditors and consultants to banks and manufacturers, many facilitated or ignored blatant irregularities. The lines between politics and business were deliberately blurred. For any real reform to occur, both public and private sector actors must be held accountable.
If the current economic model is failing, what should replace it? What does a “reset” actually look like in policy terms?
Firstly, we must accept that this economy only works for a minority. What we call ‘growth’ is often extractive and exclusionary. We need a development model that prioritises inclusion, entrepreneurship, spatial transformation, and skills. We need to create institutions that serve the public. Policy coherence is also critical. At the moment, we’re too fragmented. There is no long-term vision that binds the government, business, and civil society around a shared goal.
Can the ANC be part of that reset, or has it run its course?
The ANC is at a crossroads. Renewal is a nice word, but it has to be more than just slogans. We need a serious leadership change—not just in age but in ethics, ideology, and outlook as well. There’s an internal resistance to change because the current system only benefits those in power. The danger is that the country continues to decline while political parties debate amongst themselves. The people must take back their power.
Where do you see leadership emerging outside the traditional political class?
I’ve seen it in the youth, in communities, and in social movements. There’s a hunger for change. The problem is that the political system does not accommodate new voices, the systems just absorbs these voices or shuts them out. We need to imagine new platforms like civic networks, policy coalitions, and maybe even new political parties. These platforms should be grounded in ethics and delivery, not just access to power and resources.
In your opinion, what would ethical leadership look like in today’s South Africa?
Ethical leadership is about service, sacrifice, and a clear moral compass. It’s about making tough decisions based on principle, not popularity. Ethical leaders build institutions—they don’t dismantle them. Good leaders are also able to admit failure. We need a culture of accountability across all sectors, not just government. Too often we celebrate mediocrity or spin narratives around failure instead of owning up and correcting course.
What role does business need to play in the national recovery process?
Business has a huge role, but it must move beyond lobbying for favourable conditions. It needs to invest in skills, innovation, and inclusive value chains. Many CEOs talk about transformation, but their companies still reflect apartheid-era power structures. We also need to have difficult conversations about monopolies and concentrated ownership. Business must become a genuine partner in national development, and move away from the role of trying to be a self-interested actor.
You mentioned inclusive value chains. How can we practically achieve that?
It starts with procurement. Government and large corporates must prioritise local suppliers, especially black- and youth-owned businesses. It’s also about infrastructure this includes making sure logistics, transport and ICT work for small businesses, not just big players. And we must invest in skills—not just formal education, but also practical training and mentorship. Inclusion cannot be an afterthought; it must be baked into the economy.
Is transformation compatible with growth, or do they come into conflict?
That’s a false dichotomy. Real growth is impossible without transformation. You can’t have sustainable demand in an economy where most people are unemployed or underpaid. Transformation expands the market. It also increases trust, reduces social risk, and unlocks creativity. We should stop seeing transformation as a burden, and rather see it as opportunity.
You’ve done a lot of work with youth employment initiatives. What insights have you gained there?
Young people are not lazy or entitled, they’re survivors. They operate in a system that fails them from school to the job market. But I’ve also seen remarkable innovation—side hustles, co-operatives and tech start-ups. This was made possible through initiatives like Harambee, we’ve tried to build bridges. What’s needed is scale, consistency, and an enabling environment. Government can’t do growth and transformation alone, they also need business to help and step up.
How do you assess the role of institutions like Treasury and SARS—especially during and after the State Capture period?
Treasury, during the time I was there, was known for its integrity and technical competence. That was eroded under capture. The people targeted weren’t just numbers—they were guardians of public finance. When you weaken those institutions, recovery is slow and painful. It’s not just about replacing leadership, it’s also about restoring culture. We’ve made progress, but vigilance is required. Building institutional resilience must be a national priority, we need to understand that rules alone won’t save us, cultures of professionalism will.
Do you see hope for South Africa’s future despite these deep challenges?
I do. Our people are resilient. I’ve been in rural villages, townships, and urban centres and met South Africans who make things work against all odds. The hope lies there—in ordinary people, in young leaders, in activists. But hope is not enough. We need action. We need to organise, to vote differently, to demand more. We cannot outsource our future to politicians or CEOs.
Prof JJ Tabane is the host of ‘Power to Truth’.
