Thursday, September 09, 2010

Religion in schools

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Religion_mainThe debate is far from over

There seems to be a lull in the public debate that recently raged in South Africa about the role of religious education in our schools after the organisation, Sceptic South Africa, threatened to lay criminal charges against some schools unless they immediately halted policies in this regards, which they argue is in contravention of the Constitution and the National Policy on Religion in Education (NPRE). It is a debate that is by far not restricted to South Africa, but is globally topical and has implications much wider than merely the issue of religion in the classroom.



While Professor George Claassen from Stellenbosch, the director of Sceptic South Africa, has claimed that “many South African public schools are blatantly flouting the NPRE by openly using Christian religious indoctrination to influence pliable and vulnerable children,” the European Court of Human rights last week ruled that Italian schools should remove crucifixes from classroom walls. This ruling seems to overturn a decision of that country's own Constitution Court in 2004, that the display of crucifixes in public places was not unconstitutional in Italy as a secular state.

In Britain a controversy is raging about so-called faith schools around the right of a Jewish school's right of admission policy, while a similar debate is building up steam in Sweden about the question of state funding of the growing number of religious schools in that country – a campaign having been launched by the Swedish Humanist Association. The Swedish campaign followed in the footsteps of similar ones by humanist organisations in the United Kingdom, United States and Australia.

Ironically, the clearest lessons to be learned about how the question of religious instruction in a diverse secular state can be handled, comes from Russia – which in its recent past prescribed to the governmental system of Communism that at its core was often described as atheist.

In September this year, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev agreed that the history and culture of the country's main religions should be included in the core school curriculum. He also agreed that the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation should have military chaplains.

The new dispensation came on the back of a long battle by Rusia's Orthodox Church to make religious education compulsory in schools. But, most importantly, the Muslim and Jewish religious communities supported the Orthodox position, despite initial objections from some mufti and rabbis.

As from the next academic year, learners in the fourth and fifth classes will study one of three new subjects. There will be a choice between religious culture of either the Orthodox, Islamic, Judaic or Buddhist religion, and the history and cultural background of the world's great religions of the foundations of secular ethics. It will be compulsory to choose one of these three modules.

The three modules will be taught by teachers who have taken special training courses. Clergy from the various religions will intimately be involved in the development of both the training courses and textbooks for the schools.

Freedom of religion and conscience in South Africa is protected by section 15 of the Constitution. A Religion and Education policy, drafted during 2002 and 2003, in conjunction with the Schools Act of 1996, detremines the legal framework in terms of which religious education in the country should be handled.

In a recent article in response to the furore triggered by Prof. Claassen and Sceptic South African's attack on the religious practices at some schools, constitutional expert Prof. Pierre de Vos wrote that “religious observance at public schools is not prohibited by our Constitution. But this is a grey area and it is far from clear where exactly our Constitution draws the line.”

Section 7 of the Schools Act states that “subject to the Constitution and any applicable provincial law, religious observances may be conducted at a public school under rules issued by the governing body if such observances are conducted on an equitable basis and attendance at them by learners and members of staff is free and voluntary.”
According to De Vos, our “Constitutional Court's jurisprudence on freedom of religion and conscience has been far from satisfactory, so the answer to this question is not as clear as it could have been.”

Grey areas at this stage include issues such as:

While policies set by School Governing Bodies (SGBs) should not amount to coercion of minority groups, would a blanket banning of all religious activities from a school not amount to coercion of learners belonging a majority religious persuasion at any particular school?

How far should the reach of the democratic right of a SGB stretch if it is deemed to be an “appropriate public authority” under section 15(2) of the Constitution to make rules for religious observances, and how should the rights of minorities be protected?

If there is to be a blanket ban on the education of religion, what, if any methods should be used to arm learners with basic values?
It may even be argued that if prayers are to be banned entirely from school grounds, whether it would be permissible to teach learners the national anthem, which after all is in itself a prayer asking God to bless Africa?

While South Africa is a secular state, with clear division between state and church and an imperative on the organs of state to remain neutral in terms of matters like religion, whatever arrangements are made to govern religion in schools should cater for the needs of majorities while also protecting the rights of minorities.

In this regard, note should be taken of some basic facts: Although diverse, South Africa, according to the results of national censuses, is an overwhelmingly religious society where well over 75% indicated themselves as being members of a particular faith, with Christian the vast majority, but with strong components of the Islamic, Hindu and a variety of smaller, highly active religious minorities.

Comments (119)
  • Gav  - Truth
    I can see no problem with educating children about the cultural aspects of various religions. The real and insidious problem is the education of children to believe that the unsubstantiated supernatural claims of religion are objectively true.

    A far better idea still, would be to ensure all school children are provided with an education based on critical thinking, logic and reason. This will enable them to see for themselves the fallacious reasoning behind the ridiculous and contradictory claims made by organised religions.

    There are only two ways to make a decision about objective reality, arbitrarily and rationally, and if the choice is the former, anything is possible.
  • Mark  - fallacious reasoning?
    I can only speak as a Christian, but as far as I can see through Dawkins meager attempts and similar efforts made by others, from a scientific (as close to logical argument as one can get) approach, Christian claims cannot be refuted, only cast in doubt...please remember this Gav. You sound like you've done some reading and so you should have picked up this basic by now - there is overwhelming consensus on this point.

    Your statement about contradiction is also a sweeping one and is not justified from the reading I have come across on the matter - again I speak only for a Christianit point of view, I do not know if the same holds for other religions.

    A worrying trend in science, is that its objectivity has come under serious doubt of late. Science was initially developed to objectively pursue all alternatives in rationale and explanation, unfortunately, in the last 50 years especially, it has been redefined by atheistic scientists as the pursuit of "material" explanations. These same atheists that proudly support logical reasoning and rational analysis are the first to jump up and down when religion is entered in as an alternative consideration. "Oh no", they cry out, "we're only interested in material explanations, things we can measure and touch!" Doesn't sound to me like all the alternatives are being considered...

    Tangible science, might I remind everyone, is not the only type of science around. For example, there is deduction by elimination - i.e. By evaluating all the options and eliminating the least plausible ones, we are left with the best explanation, although it cannot be proved 100% we can hold it as true until a better explanation comes along...

    If you follow this widely accepted method, it makes room for every consideration under the sun and then all of a sudden when considered on equal par to claims of evolution, the creator theory becomes the most plausible. Read "Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel for a book littered with the shortcomings of Evolutionary theory and arguments made by many of the world's most recognised and highly decorated scientists (Nobel winners, Chairmen of numerous international and National scientific bodies etc...)in favour of a Creator.

    Take for example a football found on an island by some long lost tribe who have never interacted with the modern world, they have lived in isolation for all of history. Say this ball floated through the ocean and was discovered by the tribe. How could it be explained?

    Option 1: It is a product of evolution, because the idea of a creator cannot be undeniably proved or disproved.

    Option 2: Recognise that the complexity of the item suggests a designer was responsible and attribute the making of the ball to an intelligent designer.

    Option 2 is not absurd if you consider that we all come across complexity all the time in our daily lives and explain it away by saying that it was created by a designer of intelligence, whether it be a computer program, a television screen, a bricked pathway etc. Anything that involved complexity, logical pattern, and a need to bring all the numerous factors together we explain as being put together by a designer.

    How come then, when we are willing to accept that a bricked pathway is due to the efforts of a designer, that when we look at something far more complicated like the human body or a blade of grass, that we buy into an idea like random coming together of all these factors, ingredients and processes to produce these highly complicated structures!

    Humans cannot put together a fully functioning human body, we aren't capable of this, but evolutionary forces are, random coming together of the infinite molecules that make up our body, their instruction codes and the billion other factors that have to be perfectly aligned to sustain life is explained away by nature, whereas the placing of some bricks next to each other can only be the work of an intelligent designer... sounds to me like anything that is even remotely complicated should from a conservative, default position be attributed to the work of a designer. In all my life experience, I have found this to be true. Not once has something complicated been the work of random events. We can draw on experience to nullify Option 1 above, it just isn't plausible when faced with option 2, it doesn't stand up to it, not even close...

    The fact that experiments trying to replicate the big bang to bring about the basic building blocks for life have all been unsuccessful until, variables are controlled, environment manipulated and a designer basically enters into the equation and fiddles with the experiment to guide the outcome is a substantial victory for Creationists...

    Scientists must not redefine the rules to suit their pursuits, but rather stay true to objective consideration and consider all alternatives.

    I agree that all alternatives should be presented and that equal time should be spent dispelling myths and ...
  • Mark  - Continued...part 2 of "fallacious reasoning?"
    .....{continued} pointing out flaws in the Atheistic argument at schools. This has been a wonderfully successful way to convert many to Christianity, as scientists come to the realisation that there is no better explanation than God. God designed the world and he has left his fingerprints all over His work. Science was encouraged by the Church and still is as a means to discover and better understand God's creation and subsequently His grandeur.

    Carry on reading Gav and if you are as objective as you claim, you will pick up the book I suggested and continue to read the other side of the argument and come to know God through it as have many others before you. Do not be afraid of the change this realisation may require of you, God does the changing and it is an improvement not a downgrade you have to look forward to :)
  • Gav  - Truth cont.
    "Christian claims cannot be refuted, only cast in doubt."

    100% correct Mark. No argument there. Although as you are not able to logically substantiate these claims then they are arbitrary decisions that you accept to be an accurate reflection of objective reality. So why do you not place equal faith in the flying spaghetti monster, Bertrand Russel's teapot, Allah, and Lord Shiva? They are equally unsubstantiated and yet you call yourself, I assume exclusively, a Christian.


    "Your statement about contradiction is also a sweeping one and is not justified from the reading I have come across on the matter - again I speak only for a Christianit point of view, I do not know if the same holds for other religions."

    Non-sequitur. A Christian 'point of view' has nothing to do with objective truth. Nor does a Muslim, Hindu or Jewish 'point of view'


    "A worrying trend in science, is that its objectivity has come under serious doubt of late."

    Garbage. There has never, in the history of the human race, been a more active and robust peer review process in science than there is now. And serious doubt by whom, those who believe in unsubstantiated magic sky pixies?


    "it has been redefined by atheistic scientists as the pursuit of "material" explanations"

    Karl Popper is currently spinning in his grave like a rotisserie chicken.


    "These same atheists that proudly support logical reasoning and rational analysis are the first to jump up and down when religion is entered in as an alternative consideration."

    That would be because you simply cannot substantiate the supernatural claims of any religion using logic and reason. In light of this, if people still choose to believe then what could they possibly offer logical and rational enquiry (i.e. science)?


    "Tangible science, might I remind everyone, is not the only type of science around. For example, there is deduction by elimination -"

    This has nothing to do with deduction (in a scientific or formal logic sense). It is a poor man's attempt at induction.


    “Option 2: Recognise that the complexity of the item suggests a designer was responsible and attribute the making of the ball to an intelligent designer.”

    Argument from design was described by the judge in the Dover Kitzmiller case as "breathtaking inanity", and Behe dribbled like a 4 year old when attempng to explain it. Not something I would be proud to be associated with.


    "The fact that experiments trying to replicate the big bang to bring about the basic building blocks for life have all been unsuccessful until, variables are controlled, environment manipulated and a designer basically enters into the equation and fiddles with the experiment to guide the outcome is a substantial victory for Creationists..."

    Variables are controlled and environments manipulated so as to replicate conditions at a particular geological time. It has nothing to with a 'designer'.


    "there is no better explanation than God"

    Another logical fallacy. Argumentum ad ignorantium. Your, or anyone else's, inability to provide a rational explanation as to a particular aspect of observable reality does not mean goddidit by default (or Shivadidit, or FSMdidit, or Allahdidit).


    "Read "Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel for a book littered with the shortcomings of Evolutionary theory and arguments made by many of the world's most recognised and highly decorated scientists (Nobel winners, Chairmen of numerous international and National scientific bodies etc...)in favour of a Creator."

    Argumentum ad authoritatum. I bet I can show you at least five times as many Nobel laureates who feel the existence of a 'creator' is rubbish. Although it means nothing, there has still not been a more rational explanation for the progress of life than Darwin's theory. When one comes along then science will change. That is how science works, on the best available evidence. I notice that the dogma of religion only seems to change when it becomes demonstrably obvious through scientific enquiry that it is wrong. Do you still believe the Earth is flat?

  • Con-Tester  - Religion, As Truth, Has No Place In Schools
    To teach of various religions as cultural artefacts or historical phenomena is fine. It is when religious worship is promoted as if it had something meaningful to say about reality that trouble looms.

    A large part of the problem at schools is that of peer and parental pressures: the minority that follows a different creed will inevitably be ostracised by the believing majority. Religious instruction in any case happens at churches and at home for those children whose parents want it, and reinforcing it at school will serve to polarise pupils. Youngsters at school do not possess fully-developed critical faculties – that is something the school will, one hopes, help them cultivate. Thus, to subject children further at school to religious precepts as if they were Ultimate Truth is to do more damage than good because it cannot help but nurture the misleading impression that certain specific religious content is somehow unassailable, which it is decidedly not.

    Moreover, religions have far too long arrogated for themselves all manner of special considerations – something the cynic might argue is the only way for them to survive rational scrutiny.

    Schools are as justified promoting a particular religious canon as they would be teaching astrology and alchemy as if they were scientific.
  • Con-Tester  - Objection!
    “If there is to be a blanket ban on the education of religion, what, if any methods should be used to arm learners with basic values?”

    This is a deeply specious argument, one that is based on the unfounded diktat that religions teach values and morality. Their long histories, characterised by blood, violence and oppression, suggest otherwise. Indeed, other evidence strongly indicates that religion is counterproductive in instilling in people a sense for peace and harmony: For one instructive example, Europe has never been more secular than it is presently. It has also never been more peaceful, despite Pope Ratzinger’s mediaeval agitations.
  • Mark  - Good-Bad list - think it through Con - Tester
    You forget that present day Europe is the product of centuries of Christian values and that if you wish to draw up a good and bad list it would look something like this rather than your one-sided suggetion:

    Bad list:
    Crusades, witch hunts, blasphemy sentences, hardship and all you have referred too.

    Good list:
    The establishment of millions of schools, hospitals, community centres, orphanages, aids homes, hospices, parks, spiorts grounds, homeless shelters, kitchens etc...worldwide (in may instances the social welfare structure of the known world!)
    ----------
    List of societies actively pursuing a non-religious influence (closest thing to this that we have had experience of is not a secular society that benefits from all the good, religion has brought about, but a communist one)

    Good list:
    I'm struggling, I'll let you fill this in..

    Bad list:
    Russia, China etc... deaths far surpassing that of all the religious wars added up in history and death at the hands of the Church. What is really scary is how over the last century communism has achieved this notorious accolade, when religion has been around 20 times as long...
  • Con-Tester  - Good vs. Evil Cuts Both Ways
    And so what if present-day Europe is “the product of centuries of Christian values”? Unless of course you want to argue that Christian values only produce harmony when they become secular values. The fact is that Europe has never been more secular AND more peaceful than it is at present. Moreover, the fact is that the Roman Catholic Church (and I’m sure as a Protestant you’ll think the RCC heretical – why?) held Europe’s purse and leadership strings over most of its recorded history and you have no basis for comparing how it might have been otherwise, and therefore saying it’s “the product of centuries of Christian values” is merely an empty statement. Got any evidence to prove that “centuries of Christian values” are necessary to establish schools, hospitals, community centres? Got any evidence to prove that secular humanism precludes these things?

    As for a list of secular institutions that pursue general welfare, there are several: UN, WHO, Doctors Without Borders, Royal British Legion. Try “List of secularist organizations” at Wikipedia. Google will help you find more of them if that’s not enough. But what does that prove anyway? Because it seems there’s this unfounded notion that without a god or religion people can’t be good or that they’re much more evil without it. That, of course, is demonstrable baloney. As pointed out previously, religion often has a big hand in the commission of atrocities, as do other forms of authoritarian, evidence-free and/or magical thinking. That’s because it nurtures in its adherents the delusion that they are on the side of right and good, and anyone who holds a different view is simply wrong and probably evil, too.

    Finally, the deaths in communist countries were driven by ideology, not reason, and facilitated by technology. That would be the same essential psychopathology that drives religious people to do crazy and unreasonable things. It is also probably the case that The Crusades’ death toll would have been rather different if the technology for meting out mass death had been available then as it is now, and the kill-for-god ethos had remained the same.
  • Objective
    What can i say to that? AMEN!
  • Mark  - A few points to consider
    1) Your brash assumptions and emotional outbursts are telling of your personal aggression toward religion. I am not protestant, I was raised Roman Catholic... having said this, I am actively involced in a Church of England community as well, Gospel teaching is Gospel teaching...

    2) Please remember that a secular world is not one without religion, it is one that lives alongside religion as in the case of your European example, but where there is a separation of state and church, that's all, and I agree with this in principle.

    3)You said "Got any evidence to prove that “centuries of Christian values” are necessary to establish schools, hospitals, community centres?"

    My response: You are not engaging with the point that was made, making it very frustrating to communicate with you. Your very first point to which my response came was that the more secular the world becomes the more peaceful it becomes. Despite the fact that you haven't presented any concrete evidence for this at all (mainly in respect to the peaceful statement, as I have seen stats that suggest Europe is the most unhappy it has ever been and this manifests itself through many other destructive means, other than international conflict, which seems to be the only factor you are interested in), I have let this massive assumption slide however and engaged anyways by saying that you were painting a one-sided picture of religion being all bad. I provided you a fairer reflection of Christianity that recognised its many good points/contributions to society. This is fact. The global social welfare contribution from religion has been unmatched in history, no other movement has invested more in this respect.

    Your point on necessity is neither here nor there and I don't have to respond to it, because I never said it. But diverted from the main point I will - Of course it isn't necessary.

    You need to learn to be gracious in debate and accept fair points, in this case, that Christianity has not been all bad. Further, religious populations are the biggest contributor to both religious and secular charities. So perhaps there is evidence that being a Christian, means the likelihood of you wanting to help is increased substantially. We are after all called to help our brother and sister.

    4) Further, I don't believe I need to prove the status quo and highly held academic position that the majority of our values and ethics stem from our ancient religions, I believe the burden of proof falls on you Con-Tester to show why our philosophers, historians and the like are all wrong...

    5) At the heart of communism and Marxist theory is atheism I am sad to say, it is (in part) about making the State your God and purging all those in opposition.

    6) Finally, Europe is made up of majority self-professed believers in one faith or another, I don't think Europe would agree that the fact that the minority position has grown is why there is more peace about. There are more believers now in absolute terms than there were in medieval times and the proportions are probably as stable as they have ever been, it is just that non-believers can now openly say they are non-believers in our time with no fear of persecution, that's what accounts for the differential.

    7)One of your defenses for communism was that technology has resulted in it being a greater slayer of evil.

    I think it demonstrates that a human being, whether a believer or not is capable of evil, whether they find justice for their warped ways under the banner of perverted religion, or under the banner of philosophy or politics, a person so inclined will find any reason to act the way they wish, don't be naive and rest the blame on religion's shoulders. When you break the speed limit, is that because you had a moment of religious clarity - no, it's because you chose to and Christians have that choice to make every day just like you...

    -----
    On a more general note (in response to the actual topic), I think the idea of presenting lectures on the main religions, their role in history, the atheist position and debates around creation etc are all fantastic topics with which to grapple and are strongly a part of our culture and humanism. Equal time should be given to all religions and should be conducted on a voluntary basis in our schools.

    Remember however that the banning of religion in our schools is the opposite extreme, it favours only one minority group - atheists and there doctrinal belief that there is no God. Their religion shouldn't be favoured at the cost of other religions.
  • Con-Tester  - Okay then...
    In other words, you could just as well have said that I must remember that present-day Europe is the product of centuries of the European peoples’ changing values, a cardinal one of which was eventually to remove religious influence and authority from government.

    Now that I can agree with because it puts things in perspective.
  • Greg  - Don't forget atheism
    Logic is the subject that ought to be introduced to the curriculum. Of course, religion has provided philosophy with much to discuss, so it ought to be included if only for the sake of providing a topic for debate -- as should atheism, as a necessary complement and challenge. Baron Holbach, the Marquis de Sade, Bertrand Russel and Georges Bataille would give students something to chew over.

    Con-Tester's objection is valid: there is no reason to suppose that religion is a necessary condition for morality.

  • Concerned Christian parent's v  - irony
    It ironical that in a country where more that 80% of the population claimed to have some religious conviction or belonged to one religiion or the other, and where families have abdicated all responsibility to the educators to school their children for the future, a small minority objection to religion in schools seems to be shouting the loudest.

    It is more ironical that the so called `atheist communists' seem to be more tolerant and accommodating religious instruction in their eductation schools. Have they seen the light that the `free world' is too blind to admit.

    It's high time Christian and other religious leaders in this country stand up and defend the right and need to introduce basic religious principals and values ( flawed as it may well be) into our children because they certainly not getting it at home, from the media, TV, films or trhe conduct of the corrupt, greedy capitalist example they encountering every day in th `real' world.
  • Defollyant  - Religious Principals, eh?
    It’s exactly those religious “principals” that are most of the problem. They’re exceeding their secular mandate. And, like Con-Tester noted above, religious instruction belongs in people’s homes and their churches, not in schools.
  • Objective
    "It's high time Christian and other religious leaders in this country stand up and defend the right and need to introduce basic religious principals and values ( flawed as it may well be) into our children because they certainly not getting it at home, from the media, TV, films or trhe conduct of the corrupt, greedy capitalist example they encountering every day in th `real' world."

    What are religious principles and values?

    What is capitalism? Can you define it?

    You call capitalists greedy but isnt it precisely the socialists and more honest communists who are the greedy ones having to steal the wealth (values in the form of comfort and life essentials)from the capitalists?

    Isnt the most basic values that should be upheld that of private property and honesty?

    Isnt it exactly those two values that are destroyed by the "non-greedy" socialists, religionists and communists?

    The concept "private property" subsumes the right to differ - the right not to be subjected to the teaching of the religious lie; the right to insist that public schools, funded with stolen money should not support the teaching of the lie at the cost of reason, logic, truth, honesty, objectivity.
  • Gav  - More Truth
    "a small minority objection to religion in schools seems to be shouting the loudest."

    This the entire point of my first post. Your statement here is a logical fallacy defined as argumentum ad populum. The number of people espousing the virtues of a particular conclusion bears no relation to the truth of the claim. Educating small children to think rationally will allow them to see faulty reasoning such as this for what it is.

    "It is more ironical that the so called `atheist communists' seem to be more tolerant and accommodating religious instruction in their eductation schools. Have they seen the light that the `free world' is too blind to admit"

    As stated, there is no problem with teaching children ABOUT religion, but until organised religion can substantiate their claims about objective reality (god answers prayers, virgin births, infidels must die etc etc) then teaching children that these claims are objectively true is simply a lie.

    "
    It's high time Christian and other religious leaders in this country stand up and defend the right and need to introduce basic religious principals and values ( flawed as it may well be)"

    You admit these values may be flawed but still wish to impart them upon children. That is tantamount to abuse. We don't need pretend gods to know that it is wrong to murder and steal.
  • Mark  - Narrow definition of science

    You wrote..."Schools are as justified promoting a particular religious canon as they would be teaching astrology and alchemy as if they were scientific."


    Again you are right if science is to be redefined narrowly (see my reply to Gav on this point), but this is a mutation of science and a discredit to objectivity and leads to false conclusions. Science as considered here by you is subjective, only interested in material explanations, it cuts off any debate around other areas and if you like, is the equivalent of a dictatorship in political terms. I'm a subscriber to democracy, of hearing what everybody has to say and evaluate the merits of each suggestion accordingly...
  • Con-Tester  - Wrong, Wronger, Wrongest
    Gav has already pointed out your egregious ignorance of what science actually is so I needn’t expand thereon. Science excludes mystical accounts of phenomena for three main reasons: (a) there is no evidence to suggest such accounts are true to reality, (b) science rejects unproven hypotheses, and (c) there is not a single example of a mystical account that verifiably extends human knowledge in a productive way. It’s unlikely but there may come a time when mysticism finds a place in science (as other than a psychological modus, that is), but that time is not now, much to the chagrin of various New Age and religious kooks.

    The above argument is in any case nonsense because it assumes that there is no objective way of distinguishing what is true from what is false. Not every voice is worth listening to, especially when those voices keep repeating the same stale stupidities over and over. The “suggestions” of religious doctrine have in many cases been weighed – and found deeply wanting. One cannot speak coherently of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent uncaused first-cause personal creator-god because that concept is unintelligible ab initio. That is why theology is so ridiculously verbose – to obfuscate it’s essentially self-contradictory nature. One can only pretend to speak logically of such a thing by subverting logic, reason and evidence.
  • Mark
    It is a shame that you have subscribed to this limited thinking, The original scientific mantra did not exclude concepts because they were not able to be proved tangibly. This turn in "science" that you advocate is less than 400 years old, it is an offshoot of a scientific approach that was designed thousands of years ago and has resulted in logical thinking throughout the ages.

    Yours is a scientific movement that redefines concepts and sets rules that support your otherwise shaky premise to begin with. It is easy to argue that your brand of science is the only logical brand if the guidelines you measure this by are carefully defined to only support your premise.

    Science is not the exclusive domain of atheists, yours is a movement that creates division, breeds arrogance and promotes dismissal and is not true to the original Greek thinking specifically. From a holistic, historical perspective, your position on science is equatable to a young, rebellious teenager who is fast growing up to be the most fanatical and aggressive member of our scientific society.

    Finally, the figure that most crops up as a worldwide percentage of scientists that include all who are non-religious (and bear in mind that not all believers in God are non-religious, i.e. deists).... is 60% of the faculty. Then also factor in surveys which have produced variations in results as much as 58% to 83% of scientists who believe revealing a belief in God would jeopardise their careers. Doesn't sound like a peaceful group of chaps to me, imposing fear in their colleagues. Objectivity is already being affected by this trend. Also, you should acknowledge that non-religious scientists hardly make up an overwhelming majority of the faculty especially considering that it is a career that attracts atheists to begin with!

    Looking at this point further, your brand of science now attracts atheists in proportion of 88% to 12% (In Europe) to a career in science. Considering that this entry figure develops into less than 60% atheists after several years in their career, it seems like even despite the attempts to limit God explanations, there are more scientists converting to a belief in God than there are the other way around!!! It is still my contention, that clever men and women no matter how slanted toward atheism to begin with cannot escape the undeniable truth on a personal level that there is something greater at play, that the atheist's position can simply not explain, even for all their attempts to limit our thinking and in changing all the rules of science, they are not succeeding in keeping the most plausible explanation at bay.

    I am now done with this forum as it is taking up too much of my time. :) I thank all those who engaged, for their input and wish you all the best.
  • Con-Tester  - That So?
    And it’s a shame that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about when on the topic of science. That would be quite besides attributing to me a slew of invalid inferences and citing statistics for which you provide no reference.

    But seeing as you’re leaving, good luck to you nonetheless.
  • Obviously Christian  - All I have to say
    To all the experts, philosophers, scholars and debaters out there discussing this issue of religions in schools and others such as evolution theory and the worth/veracity of religion - and particularly Christianity - as a whole:

    “For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts. Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made the world’s wisdom foolish? For since, in God’s wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.” (1 Corinthians 1:18-23).
  • Mark  - To my friend who believes in a more miraculous exp
    Wow, Gav, there are simple rebuttals to be made to every point you have raised, so simple that I now question your research in the area.

    You have clearly not engaged in the topic from an objective standpoint, I suggest you broaden your reading, it is both sad and insulting when you hide behind your atheist doctrine.

    Readers, do not be suckered into believing for one second that what Gav is advocating is real science, it is a perversion of the noble goal of science which is to uncover the best explanation in respect to the above context, it is NOT a means by which to postulate the best conclusion via observable means. This is basics Gav, please tell me you haven't bought into this narrow understanding of science...

    You also fail to see the bigger picture in my argument Gav which makes it very frustrating to respond to you. That and the fact that you are very aggressive. As emotional as you are about this issue it is best to leave those emotions at home and fight the urge to respond with terms like "garbage", "magic sky pixies", "dribbled like a 4 year old", etc...

    For instance, your inability to grasp the major point in the following statement... "Read "Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel for a book littered with the shortcomings of Evolutionary theory and arguments made by many of the world's most recognised and highly decorated scientists (Nobel winners, Chairmen of numerous international and National scientific bodies etc...)in favour of a Creator."

    This wasn't an appeal to authority, but rather a courteous tip on where to start your reading, a place where you may find summaries of well presented arguments in favour of an intelligent designer. After reading it, you may find that you would be embarrassed not to be a supporter of intelligent design, complete with 4-year old dribble or not :)

    Had you not got all worked up, you would have seen it for what it was, a helpful reference... I was also making the point that it is a position advocated by many respectable thinkers. I would think that their respectability in their field may just mean that there is more substance to the argument than the picture you paint.

    Overall, I think it is best to agree that we will disagree at this moment in time at least. I am going to invite readers to purchase a book from the Christian's point of view and very quickly they will discover how elementary your points are. With all due respect, they would be covered in week 1 of a 3-year theological degree.

    I have no urge to fight with you and again wish you my best in your pursuit of truth, I am convinced I have discovered it and will try to help others discover it too.

    A little story for the readers:

    Two men, driving around in the dark, in stormy weather, one notices all the warning signs as pointed out by his map, begins to beg the other to stop along the path he is driving, for the edge of a cliff is approaching even though they can't see it through the bad weather....The driver questions the authority of the map and dismisses it as unjustifiable because of its premise and creator whom he believes not to exist. He continues off the cliff.

    The map is our Bible, I can't prove to you that the contents are true, but that doesn't change the fact that a cliff is coming.

    Oh yes, I must just add that Christians were among the first to believe that the world was round and in fact funded Columbus' expedition to prove it so and other scientists work in this very field. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Christian equals stupid, our history is littered with countless examples of visionaries, scholars and wise men and woman to whom Christianity was a logical argument. Many more breakthroughs in science were made by men and woman of faith than by atheists. Not that keeping track of this score actually means anything except to say that minds greater than yours and mine have seen no contradiction in living as a Christian scientist.

    By the way, loved the reference to Karl Popper spinning in his grave!




  • Objective
    "Many more breakthroughs in science were made by men and woman of faith than by atheists. Not that keeping track of this score actually means anything except to say that minds greater than yours and mine have seen no contradiction in living as a Christian scientist.
    I doubt the veracity of this statement more so because it is so general as to be meaningless. Unless you can name some names and cite specific scientific contributions one cannot evaluate the statement.
    Insofar as a person, who believes in a god or other form of spook, makes any serious scientific contribution he/she makes it by means of its rational faculaties and not by faith.
    The problem with teaching children religion and other magical stories at school is that one exacerbates an already bad situation by fragmenting and deforming an already misformed mind of a child brought up to school going age by religious and magical stories.
    Schools are there to teach children to think critically and analytically and to learn the odd bit of factual knowledge. The problem of course is that teachers and parents of religious people lack the cognitive abilities to understand what i am writing because they are functioning themselves with a greatly misformed brain.

    Merci m'sieur CT pour prendre l'initiative.

  • Chris  - My dear objective
    I have been reading this forum with much interest, I have to agree with Greg in that Objective and Gav are both far too aggresive!

    "I doubt the veracity of this statement more so because it is so general as to be meaningless. Unless you can name some names and cite specific scientific contributions one cannot evaluate the statement."

    Mark said that keeping a score didn't mean anything!! You need to read more carefully... it highlights your motive to try and humiliate, but shows you up for the arrogant person you are...

    Also I want specific examples of everything you have said up until now, otherwise I will dismiss it as pure speculation - you must be a horror to socialise with!!!! Your points are made with the same vigor as a 10 year old who screams at the top of their lungs, "Prove it!" Engage with the discussion, don't resort to childish responses.

    My understanding of Mark's clear point (and I'm no Einstein) was that many scientists smarter than you (even though you continually try to keep up the facade with your French inserts which is highly annoying... "Merci m'sieur CT pour prendre l'initiative.") have applied their same logical mind to the question of a God and have come to the conclusion that He is real... i.e. it can be a logical deduction, clearly!

    ---Now do I leave a little comment in my Swedish mother tongue, or perhaps in my German? Hmm, which sounds more pompous?


  • Chris  - Correction
    Sorry, not so much Gav as Con-Tester, I mixed up the two...my apologies Gav.

    Try not to treat people as an opportunity to practice the destructive phrases of arrogance you delight yourselves in staying up all night to come up with - nobody is attracted to that sort of approach and the fair points you do make are indeed lost in the noise as a result (to borrow from Greg once more).
  • Con-Tester  - One More Correction
    No, no, you have it all wrong. “[Treating] people as an opportunity to practice the destructive phrases of arrogance [I] delight [myself] in staying up all night to come up with” (what delicious irony!) is not an unprovoked cudgelling, but a direct and fully justified response to one’s being treated to the destructive phrases of arrogance that are manufactured for the defence and promotion of religious claptrap that apologists delight themselves in staying up all night to concoct. See, religions have insidiously contrived to accrue for themselves an undeserved respect about the unassailability of their tenets and doctrines, and so anyone who makes a provocative anti-religious utterance is immediately viewed as some sort of social leper. It is that mindset that needs to change before we can properly pride ourselves on being an open society. But of course that doesn’t play into the hands of religionists and so will no doubt be rejected wholesale.
  • Chris  - You just want to be argumentative
    You are a social leper not because of what you say, but how you say it - you're impossible, and nobody wants an open society if it means hurling abuse at one another!

    "It is that mindset that needs to change" - everyone needs to change except for you...tisk tisk
  • Con-Tester
    Right, so the content is okay but the wrapping sucks. Well, I’m just floored that you and others don’t like it when I frame things strongly.
  • Chris  - Mr perfect
    Shame, again, you are floored, how could you be wrong, I mean that isn't possible!
  • objective  - clarifying linguistic regurgitation
    "Mark said that keeping a score didn't mean anything!! You need to read more carefully... it highlights your motive to try and humiliate, but shows you up for the arrogant person you are..."

    Mark wrote:""Many more breakthroughs in science were made by men and woman of faith than by atheists. Not that keeping track of this score actually means anything except to say that minds greater than yours and mine have seen no contradiction in living as a Christian scientist."

    I may just as well write that all scientific achievements were the products of atheists and men and women of faith have contributed nothing to progress but rather retarded and hampered the process. Minds greater that anything that can be conceived have conluded that living as a christian scientist is a contradiction in terms."

    Statements such as those are meaningless because they offer nothing by which their truth or falsehood can be evaluated. If keeping score is not important why mention these christian scientists and their achievements?

    "Also I want specific examples of everything you have said up until now, otherwise I will dismiss it as pure speculation [...]"

    Non sequitur.

    "[..] you must be a horror to socialise with!!!!"

    Irrelevant - i am not here to massage your ego or stoop to a level of discussion to match yours.

    " Your points are made with the same vigor as a 10 year old who screams at the top of their lungs, "Prove it!" Engage with the discussion, don't resort to childish responses."

    What discussion? the one that goes 'all christians are saints and faith is required to succeed in science and the proof lies in the fact that science depends for its funstioning on faith?'

    "My understanding of Mark's clear point (and I'm no Einstein) {I would never have been able to tell..} was that many scientists smarter than you (even though you continually try to keep up the facade with your French inserts which is highly annoying... "Merci m'sieur CT pour prendre l'initiative.") {LOLOLOL - certainly no Einstein} have applied their same logical mind to the question of a God and have come to the conclusion that He is real... i.e. it can be a logical deduction, clearly!"

    Who are those scientists and what were their arguments? It is certainly not clear that god can be a logical deduction. It is in fact much clearer to me that god is a figment of the imagination..conjured by ignorent people thousands of years ago and propagated by word of mouth to the day.

    logic btw is the method we use to test that integration of an argument proceeds without contradiction and as such it has not truth value. A proposition is only true if its inverse is true and the premise is true.

    "---Now do I leave a little comment in my Swedish mother tongue, or perhaps in my German? Hmm, which sounds more pompous?"

    I do not think any will sound pompous but that of course depends on your evaluation of your self and your cognitive abilities which by your own admission are sorely lacking.

    Quod erat demonstratum?

  • Chris  - and I took you seriously at first!
    hahahahaha, you're such a tool... I'm printing this all out and showing the guys at work, they're laughing at your inability to communicate, the money you spent on your education should be refunded, you are incapable of participating in an unoffensive manner. You're so full of nonsense it really is cracking us up! what a waste of my time, Mark was right to leave this behind, I'm doing the same, cheers!
  • objective  - if you are going to bs at least get our tenses rig
    :) sine sapientia nihil libertas est.
  • Con-Tester  - Bienvenue
    Pas de problème, M. l’O!
  • Objective
    Defollyant: religion does not even belong in church or at home. It is a bull argument that is learnt and propagated from generation to generation by means of word of mouth. For people who lay claim to 'truth' christians are the most ardent destroyers of truth and promotors of the lie.

    You are being kind by making the allowance and of course people have the right to be idiots but do they have the right to teach their children idiotic lies? Do they have the right to cripple their children intellectually before they even get to school? I say NO!
  • Chris  - Foolishness clad in arrogance is still foolishness
    For years and years and even now Science text book propagate the lie that evolution is fact, it is and always will remain a theory and a bad one at that, there is little or no evidence that supports it and it should be dismissed on the same basis you dismiss Christianity, i.e. that it cannot be proven.

    In 100 years time, people will be looking back and laughing at how ridiculous the concept of evolution is, most notably, paleontologists, who with each passing day, each passing excavation, bury Darwin's arguments.

    Keep this propaganda and nonsense out of our schools, out of our childrens' text books, it is absolute speculation and in may instances, starting with Haeckel's faked drawings and including production of fake fossils in China most notably have been used to promote evolution through blatant misrepresentations and lies.

    Evolutionists are stopping at nothing to spread these lies which are as of this point in time not supported by any evidence whatsoever, on the contrary, the sudden appearance of fully formed organisms in the Cambrian explosion kills off macro-evolution there and then, evolutionists are the ones who believe in magic, because that's what they'll need to be able to produce the evidence they need. Surely we've dug around enough for these loony scientists, let it go already, how many more hundred years do we have to keep digging until you abandon this lunacy.

    exerpt from *****//***.gnmagazine.org/booklets/EV/fossilrecord.htm

    Paleontology's well-kept secret

    What does all this mean? In plain language, if evolution means the gradual change of one kind of organism into another kind, the outstanding characteristic of the fossil record is the absence of evidence for evolution—and abundant evidence to the contrary. The only logical place to find proof for evolutionary theory is in the fossil record. But, rather than showing slow, gradual change over eons, with new species continually emerging, the fossils show the opposite.
  • Defollyant  - Fair Enough
    You’re right, of course. I should instead have written, “…religious instruction, if indeed it belongs anywhere at all, it’s in people’s homes and their churches, not in schools.” ;)
  • Greg  - Be polite
    The question is whether religion ought to be taught at school, not who has the biggest e-penis. Con-Tester, Objective, you clearly have big ones, but you're coming across as jerks, sad to say. 'Egregious ignorance' -- pompous ass. Gav, your valid points are lost in the noise. Religious folk, perhaps you could also get with the program and suggest viable ways for religion -- and atheism -- to be taught at school.
  • Con-Tester  - Pompous Indeed, Mr Arbiter-of-Discussion!
    First, Mark’s obvious ignorance of science is egregious. Look the word up if you don’t know what it means.

    Second, I was being polite unless of course it’s your contention that pointing out an evident fact must take second place behind being all cosy and sociable. I could instead have called him a “f***ing clueless m*r*n” without specifying. That would have been impolite, though justified.

    Third, the question is not “whether religion ought to be taught at school”. The question is whether those schools that do engage in religious ritual as part of ordinary school and class activities are in fact contravening their secular mandate and/or the law. An ancillary question is how religious ideas are to be taught at school if they are to be taught at all.

    Fourth, SA’s Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, as you correctly point out. What it does not say, however, that schools are free to choose their subject matter for instruction, and that includes religious matter. By that standard, a school that wishes to practice LaVeyan Satanism is entitled to do so. How well do you think that will fly?

    Finally, these last two comments of yours (2009-11-11 05:36:49 and 2009-11-11 05:38:49) have contributed precisely what to the conversation? Perhaps you are the author of the above article, yes?
  • Sue  - Atheist and ashamed
    You should be ashamed of yourself, I am an atheist and think you have represented us very poorly indeed, your manner is appalling and does more damage than good. You should not partake in civil, public discussion, you are not capable of moving past your pride.
  • Con-Tester  - As You Wish
    I happen to disagree quite strongly with the all-too-common and unstated assumption that it’s more important to be polite than it is to be factual. I won’t pretend a respect that’s clearly undeserved. That would be deeply dishonest. Despite your chiding air, pride and shame carry little weight here.
  • Chris  - Joker
    There you go, making rules again, "pride and shame carry little weight here" as if you decide what carries weight! You are really something else, what a laugh - hahaha

    You have a lot to learn, news flash, it is possible to be BOTH factual and polite...

    "I won’t pretend a respect that’s clearly undeserved. That would be deeply dishonest." Dishonest eh, now look who is trying to take the moral high-ground, sorry none of us are buying it!
  • Twylite  - Factual OR polite, pick one
    > You have a lot to learn, news flash, it is possible to be BOTH factual and polite...

    No, it's not. Facts are only persuasive in an argument when the audience is intelligent and willing to be persuaded.

    For this reason a well-placed ad hominem will invariably beat a reasoned argument.

    Charismatic leaders know this. Introverted scientists don't. Guess who is winning the hearts & minds of the population?
  • Greg  - @ Objective
    The laughable irony of your moniker aside, freedom of religion is a constitutional right in South Africa.
  • Objective
    "The laughable irony of your moniker aside,..."
    :)

    "[...]freedom of religion is a constitutional right in South Africa."

    You dont say....and abusing children by filling their minds with contradictions and religious claptrap is not!
  • Julliette  - Moral IQ
    Maybe we should investigate the possibility that our Moral IQ's have moved beyond religion and science.

    I am sure we can all come up with a moral code that can be taught at school which does not impinge on anyone's rights.


  • Greg  - MIQ
    I like the idea of a moral IQ. Discussing means by which it could be (scientifically) measured could be an interesting classroom exercise!

  • Julliette  - Moral IQ
    The measure of our MIQ, in schools can easily be measured by the increase or decrease of crimal activities within the school grounds.

    Stabing,raping,selling drugs statistics are all pretty acurate ways of measuring the moral IQ in schools.
  • Johnny  - Overall point of view
    There is allot of offence and defense, and yes the religious and non-religious shall always differ in point of view. I am however surprised and glad to see that the human race still wants to believe in something may it be, God, Allah, Lord Shiva, Atheism or Science. It’s that driving force for us to belong to something or someone bigger than us that drives us all to find the “truth”.
    Why the shout against religion in schools? Surely if you are a Non-Believer or Atheist this matter (that should seem stupid to you) shouldn’t even matter! I do not believe in every single thing I come across or read otherwise I would believe in Fairy Tales now that being said I am not going to fire the kindergarten teacher am I? Logical thinking cannot be taught you either have or you don’t otherwise every person would become a scientist, math wizard or an engineer and there would be no artists, architects, Priests, kindergarten teachers etc.
    Instead of asking the question of should religion be taught in schools rather ask a different question:
    How can government accommodate all religion in schools? It is possible in this country see how far we have come since prior government!

    I am not going to give you any bible verses, books to read or DVD’s to watch. Yes I am a Christian (with allot of mistakes) but have also learned that you have to speak the same language as the non-believers so I will leave you with this: NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
  • Con-Tester  - Some Basics
    As pointed out already, if children are bombarded at home, in church and at school as well with the same unsustainable religious twaddle as if it was Ultimate Truth beyond any question, then that does a serious disservice to their ability to develop critical thinking skills.

    And no one can prove that Russell’s orbiting teapot doesn’t exist either, but what are the chances that it actually does? Moreover, “semper necessitas probandi incumbit qui agit” (the claimant is always bound to prove, i.e. the claimant has the burden of proof).
  • Johnny  - Some Basics?
    I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. I am trying to say everyone whants to believe in something like you as I can see trusts in science and statistics. But it is no place of someone who does not believe as other trying to opress the others and visa versa. Therefor the question: How can government accommodate all religion in schools?

    I am not dissing anyones believes whether its teapots, or fairy tales, science or whatsoever. I can give you some prove of what the possibilities are with God's intervention.

    We are experiencing droudt, and one of my friends is a farmer. After allot of praying (or meditataion call it what you may)it is decided to tart drilling for water. The farm is situated on high-lands so drilling is a major risk for not finding any water. At the depth of 60 meters the engineer said there is no point of continuing since there are water at that depth (tested advise by meens of geological equipment - scienctific. My friend argued for an hour stating he trusts in God and that he does not trust the scientific advise..... I received a phone call about an hour ago - they found water at the depth of 80meters with a flow of 40 000 liters per hour.

    This is not a sobby story but rather makes you think what would have happend if he followed scientific advise and evidence rather than to be faithfull. I may give you his number if you want to verify this.

    Now back to the religion in schools issue - I think if we all put our heads together for a change instead of scrutinizing everything and everyone we will be able to continue religion (all religion) in school as long as it is parralel to law. (no goats being slaughtered, no children being killed who doesn't believe etc.)
  • Con-Tester
    But science is neither about satisfying a basic need to believe in something, nor is it driven by such a need. The only dogmatism in science is its insistence on satisfactory evidence for any proposed claims about the real world. For example, we don’t “believe” in General Relativity (GR) the way religious people believe in the god they were indoctrinated with. We “believe” in GR because we can conduct experiments that support the claims GR makes about the real world and because these experiments have so far always yielded results that accord with those claims. If a reproducible series of experiments were to conflict with GR’s account of reality (unlikely, but not impossible), we would look for a better theory and reject GR as false. This has very little to do with belief, except to the extent that we nourish an inductive believe the real world is comprehensible, a belief for which we have a large and compelling body of evidence.
  • Objective
    "NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST"

    Naturally not. Proof requires evidence and there exists no evidence for the existence of a non existent god.

    Dont ask for proof when you rest your claim to evidence on faith.
  • Con-Tester  - What Yardstick?
    Ethics is a very tricky subject even at the best of times. Such trickiness is one of the main reasons why the world has so many different religions to begin with. Worldwide, Christianity alone numbers around 39,000 recognised denominations.

    IQ, as normally understood, is already problematic. Psychologists are divided over the issue of what “g” (general intelligence) actually measures. Sure, there are dimensions like analytical skill, ability to synthesise and abstract, associative faculty, and more, but there is no general consensus as to how these dimensions add up to an IQ.

    Two questions then re a “moral IQ”: First, what is it and how is it to be measured – that is, can one construct a functional definition of this concept that would allow objective assessments to be made? Second, what weighting is to be given to the various aspects that comprise it, and on what basis?

    If one proposes some form of public and/or expert agreement as answers to these questions, it will be rejected by many quarters on the grounds of fostering moral relativism. This is what is happening with standardised IQ measures: They are being rejected on the grounds of cultural biases.

    Collecting comparative statistics on assorted crimes as a proxy for a “moral IQ” is fraught with problems. Surely one would wish to assess individuals, rather than groups. What would the “moral IQ” of a group actually represent? Would the presence of a single violent murderer in a group of otherwise peacefully cohabiting individuals skew the whole group’s “moral IQ”? If we assess individually, does an individual who stabs an assailant in self-defence diminish his/her “moral IQ” by such an act? Does a multiple stabbing with a butcher’s knife produce a bigger knock in “moral IQ” than a single stabbing with nail file? Does a wrongful accusation of rape incur a “moral IQ” knock? What of the victim’s role which in many cases can be argued to have been a contributory factor towards a transgression? Does a person who commits a crime and later confesses suffer a lesser “moral IQ” knock?

    Ay, the trickiness of ethics is in the details. Given more than one moral precept, there will always be a situation imaginable in which these precepts run afoul of each other. The problem is then in deciding which is to take precedence and in what circumstances.
  • Greg  - Tricky ethics
    Ethics is a tricky subject -- all the more reason to broach it at school. Having students approach the problematic of a moral IQ and think it through themselves rather than handing them a moral template would surely be a useful pedagogical exercise. Failing that, just working through one of the many popular books of philosophical puzzles (eg. 'Can A Robot Be Human?') would probably cover many bases otherwise neglected.

  • Con-Tester
    But nowhere have I argued that ethics should not be studied at school. Nor have I argued that religion should not be studied at school. If you think otherwise on either count, please point out where that impression is generated.

    What I have consistently and repeatedly argued against is that schools have the right to impose religious ritual and practice on schoolgoers whether directly or by means of social and/or psychological pressures, and that they can favour one religious canon above all others as some kind of truth. Science classes do not begin with a prayer that, say, Newton’s laws of motion should, if it pleases the universe, remain valid for the duration of the class. Such statements of faith and the imprecations that they might prompt would in any case be totally ridiculous, I’m sure you’ll agree. But that’s exactly the point: major religions should be taught *about* in view of their social and cultural significance in a way comparable to which literature is taught. We study stories, poems and plays to try and fathom meaning, individual or collective, from the authors’ words. What we don’t usually do is to enact those writings physically because some people may think them true. Similarly, we can learn about different religions without having to engage in their practice. Once more, the latter is the province of the home and the church. A school that breaches this premise is exceeding its rights on shaping the minds of its charges.

    It’s all neatly summarised in the first sentence of my comment timestamped 2009-11-09 15:49:03.
  • Mark  - Couldn't agree more
    I have no problem with teaching comparative religion in the classroom as a part of the curriculum; I DO have a problem withreligious OBSERVANCE in schools, which is tantamount to brainwashing. How can you teach a child to think when you are also teaching him "faith" which is the antithesis of thought.
  • Greg  - Ethics ...
    I didn't say you didn't, I just used your long post about the trickiness of ethics to bring the topic back to the classroom, ostensibly the frame of this topic. Yes, the meaning of 'teaching about religion'is self-evident.

    I think philosophy should be a subject on its own, with religion, ethics, etc branching from it. That would foster a critical approach to these matters, with any luck, and obviate any sort of dogmaticism. Students' religious backgrounds could be drawn on by skillful teachers without anyone being excluded.

    Obviously, religion is bound to crop up in literature and history classes as well. Perhaps there is scope for examining the various sacred texts as literature -- and drama, why not?
  • Gordon  - No thanks!
    The problem with religion in schools is that it asks learners to suspend all reasoned thinking to believe in something that cannot be supported by evidence.
    What if we allowed this type of logic into the maths class or laboratories?

    Where would we draw the line?
    Do we tell kids that we all come from Adam 6000 years ago?
    Do teach them that musical instruments are evil tools of Satan before or after music class?
    Do we inform them that homosexuals are going to hell before or after teaching them about civil liberties and freedom of association?
    The list is endless and lets not forget it took the church 400 years to acknowledge that actually Galileo was right after all!


    For anyone who wants a great video on the subject watch Hitchens at his best.
    *****//exchristian****/exchristian/2009/10/christopher-hitchens-and-to ny-jones.html

    I think we should teach kids the history of all religions but not instruct them in religious studies... big difference.
  • Con-Tester  - Very Revealing
    And this mindless banter plus that of 2009-11-11 12:42:58 and 2009-11-11 12:51:27 are the contributions of the self-appointed poster child for fine decorum.
  • Con-Tester  - Ooopsie!
    There, you see? I can make a mistake. This was supposed to be in reply to Chris’s comment of 2009-11-11 12:53:08.
  • Gordon
    Jonny - the problem with it in schools is that various religions proclaim to have indisputable answer to things that they are already proven wrong about (creation vs evolution) or answers for things they can not possibly know.
    They do this without evidence and they call it faith.
    Faith is not a virtue, it is a cop out! IT answers nothing and STOPS any further questioning on a subject.
  • Anonymous  - Gordon
    Gordon, religion does incorporate Apologetics!

    Faith is not the only element at play in our belief. Our belief is logical and the argument is substantiated. We do not ONLY have faith to fall back on as you would have everyone believe. Please avail yourself of the bible or attend a church service and you will be pleasantly surprised at the structured and coherent and logically intuitive explanations for the way Christians live.

    FAITH is no cop out, it is a a point of trust that only inspired men and women, whose heart's have been changed, can come to understand. It is the one most significantly brave and courageous and overwhelming decision one can make in their lifetime. Christians know they will be persecuted for defending it, yet we are moved to faith anyway, don't you think we'd prefer to live a life that was free of your insults and persecution? Why would we possibly choose this way of life if we were not convinced by it?

    We have been shown the mercy of God and in the face of that realisation, we cannot deny Him, but accept his sacrifice for us and are prepared to hold fast in that faith.

    A blind man will learn of colour, and have faith in its existence, although they could never know it true in the way a man with sight does, having faith is not a cop out, it is sometimes exactly the only way to realise truth.

    Those afraid of what they do not know, will mock, scorn and criticise, your hearts are hard and rebellious.

  • Gav
    "Our belief is logical and the argument is substantiated."

    I would like to hear your argument. Could you please detail it for me?
  • Anonymous  - Apologetics
    Better than that, I will let professional authors do it, here are 25 to start with:

    1. Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics by William Lane Craig
    The list author says:
    "I was pleasantly surprised to find Reasonable Faith very readable for the average layperson. It does require some effort, however. A good lead in to this would be to first read Defending Your Faith by R.C. Sproul."
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    God, Freedom, and Evil
    2. God, Freedom, and Evil by Alvin Plantinga
    The list author says:
    "Although this book is a short 112 pages in length, for those unfamiliar with philosophical constructs it will, as Professor Platinga acknowledges in his Introduction, require a “willingness to think hard about its various steps.”"
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  • Anonymous  - list continued
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  • Anonymous  - List continued
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  • Gav
    I actually asked for the argument and not a cut/paste list of other people's books. I assume that as you've listed these books, you've read and understand them, and I would therefore expect that you should be able to provide me with the formal argument in substantiation of your god's existence.

    So, please feel free to do so anytime.


  • Anonymous  - transparent
    Gav, the point was clearly made for everyone to see, the arguments (PLURAL) are so many and the reading is so vast that I would be here all year, not only that, if you are not aware of them already, you have clearly not done any reading on the side that you wish to simply dismiss. It seems everyone needs to educate themselves in your beliefs but you have no time for others'.

    Just like I wouldn't ask you to spell out the theory of relativity here, knowing full well that I should stop being lazy and go read up on it myself from somebody who is an expert in that area, so too, you should want to read up on the Apologetics of my faith, not on this forum, but from well thought-out, well presented literature.

    If you would GENUINELY like to hear the arguments, you would have thanked me for the reading list and have ordered your books by now...
  • Gav
    If you are going to make statements such as;

    "Our belief is logical and the argument is substantiated."

    Then substantiate it. 'Lazy' is exactly what you have been here. Just as you would expect me to substantiate the statement "your god does not exist". Nor would you accept a cut/paste book list as a response.
  • Gordon  - @ CHRIS
    CHRIS - it is sad to see someone resort to plain old lies to try and discredited factual evidence. The fossil record is there for you to look at yourself, get off your backside and get educated. Nobody of any substance in science disputes the evolutionary process, only religious fanatics (the Kent Hovinds no-nothings) apply pseudoscience to concoct stories of science that suit their bronze age myths.

    Science has filled so many gaps (and the pace is quickening) that the leap of faith is now so great, religions have been forced to make things up, running smear campaigns on the scientific theories that form the basis of modern human existence.

    The non-science should be exposed and ridiculed and shown for the complete fraud that it is. Private religion for personal comfort is fine, spreading lies and disinformation to kids is not.
    I wish someone would take this to the courts and settle it properly. It has been done in the USA with a few nutty school boards being dissolved by federal order.

  • Con-Tester  - Quite So
    All of which is true. However, evolution is supported by a good deal more than just the fossil record. There is a confluence of evidentiary lines from a wide range of biological and other disciplines: genetics, biogeography, embryology, virology, microbiology, ecology, etc. They all point to the same essential narrative – a narrative that could instantly become untenable if, say, we found fossils of hominids among trilobites. (That is, quite apart from the infantile ineptitude that inheres in the notion that hundreds of scientists are colluding to suppress the Real Truth™© 325 CE.)

    In contrast, neither creationism nor intelligent design (ID) “theory” is scientific, even in principle. It lacks testable consequences, and nothing could conceivably falsify it. Why, there’s no reason at all to challenge the idea that the universe was created, complete with people having false memories and all (c.f. Philip Henry Gosse’s Omphalos hypothesis), last Tuesday just after tea. The closest ID proponents have come to producing a testable criterion is Behe’s “irreducible complexity.” Their archetypes, viz. the eye, the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade, are receiving intense scrutiny. The development of the camera eye is well documented and has been shown to be the product of adaptation and cooption. Moreover, if the eye is designed, the designer is a ham-fisted bungler. Massimo Pigliucci reports that plausible scenarios for the development of the bacterial flagellar motor are at hand but need some evidentiary support. Ditto the blood-clotting chain. When (not “if”) these puzzles have been solved, IDherents will no doubt again shift the goalposts.
  • Con-Tester
    Er, another mistake: “… that hundreds *of thousands* of scientists are colluding *internationally* to suppress…”
  • Paleontologist  - Darwin set out the steps for disproving
    Con-Tester, if only the fossil records disprove Evolutionary theory, then that is enough, no matter what other attacks the theory manages to fend off, if this one central pillar is knocked down, the whole theory collapses. Darwin himself recognised this. It is not necessary to knock down the foundations as well, if the wall has come down.

    All that we can say about the other areas of conjecture is that evolutionary theory did a good job there but it doesn't change the fact that it is still found wanting and should be rejected as a result. Scientists should be trying to uncover a better explanation rather than beating a dead horse.

    I struggle to understand why people work themselves up over a theory that has been found wanting, why so emotional, reject and move on, try think of a better explanation.
  • Con-Tester  - Where Can One Read About This, Please?
    I must ask you, as a palaeontologist, whether this remarkable contention, i.e. that the fossil record allegedly refutes Darwinism, been published in any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals? If yes, please cite some references as to where one can read about it because it would be a highly significant finding. If no, please explain why not, and also when and in which journal(s) one can expect it to be published.
  • Paleontologist  - Happy to oblige
    First a collection of some of my favourite quotes from proponents of both sides including Darwin and Dawkins:

    1. "The gaps in the record are real"

    "The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of a record of any important branching is quite phenomenal. Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, species seldom and genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement of one by another, and change is more or less abrupt (John and Miklos 1988, 307)." (Wesson, Robert G. [political scientist and philosopher], "Beyond Natural Selection," [1991], MIT Press: Cambridge MA, 1994, reprint, p45). [top]

    2. ... it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained"

    "In the early days of evolutionary paleontology it was assumed that the major gaps would be filled in by further discoveries, and even, falsely, that some discoveries had already filled them. As it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained, despite wonderful progress in finding the members of lesser transitional groups and progressive lines, it was no longer satisfactory to impute this absence of objective data entirely to chance. The failure of paleontology to produce such evidence was so keenly felt that a few disillusioned naturalists even decided that the theory of organic evolution, or of general organic continuity of descent, was wrong, after all." (Simpson, George Gaylord [late Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University], "Tempo and Mode in Evolution," [1944], Columbia University Press: New York NY, 1949, Third Printing, p.115). [top]

    3. "... a disturbing lack of ... transitional forms between the major groups of organisms"

    "Darwin predicted that the fossil record should show a reasonably smooth continuum of ancestor-descendant pairs with a satisfactory number of intermediates between major groups Darwin even went so far as to say that if this were not found in the fossil record, his general theory of evolution would be in serious jeopardy. Such smooth transitions were not found in Darwin's time, and he explained this in part on the basis of an incomplete geologic record and in part on the lack of study of that record. We are now more than a hundred years after Darwin and the situation is little changed. Since Darwin a tremendous expansion of paleontological knowledge has taken place, and we know much more about the fossil record than was known in his time, but the basic situation is not much different. We actually may have fewer examples of smooth transition than we had in Darwin's time because some of the old examples have turned out to be invalid when studied in more detail. To be sure, some new intermediate or transitional forms have been found, particularly among land vertebrates. But if Darwin were writing today, he would probably still have to cite a disturbing lack of missing links or transitional forms between the major groups of organisms." (Raup, David M. [Professor of Geology, University of Chicago], "Geological and Paleontological Arguments," in Godfrey L.R., ed., "Scientists Confront Creationism," W.W. Norton: New York NY, 1983, p.156). [top]

    4. "What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin"

    "Evolution at the level of populations and species might, in some cases, appear as nearly continuous change accompanied by divergence to occupy much of the available morphospace. However, this is certainly not true for long-term, large-scale evolution, such as that of the metazoan phyla, which include most of the taxa that formed the basis for the evolutionary synthesis. The most striking features of large-scale evolution are the extremely rapid divergence of lineages near the time of their origin, followed by long periods in which basic body plans and ways of life are retained. What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types." (Carroll, Robert L. [Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology, Redpath Museum, McGill University, Canada ], "Towards a new evolutionary synthesis," Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 2000, Vol. 15, pp.27-32, p.27). [top]

    5. Cambrian Explosion
    * "... if the theory be true ... before the lowest Cambrian stratum ... the world swarmed with living creatures"

    "Consequently, if the theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Cambrian stratum was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably far longer than, the whole interval from the Cambrian age to the present day; and that during these vast periods the world swarmed with living creatures. ... To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I ca...
  • Paleantologist  - clutching at straws
    Pray tell, which fossil records are you refering to? I am yet to see/hear of one complete sequence in my lifetime? Are you seriously contending that there is one!

    We should be numbering well over 50 Billion complete sequences and if the fossil record is in keeping with your delusional position, why aren't all the museums and libraries around the world bursting at the seams with all these findings?

    No smear campaign (and this is where your accusations are Mugabe-likened) could keep these findings out of the scientific journals especially considering the atheist backing behind the majority of scientific publications today.

    If there have been any smear campaigns and propaganda, it has come from the evolutionists...starting with Haekel and his fudged drawings!

    No, when it comes to fossil records, I am afraid Chris is right, evolution has been debunked!
  • GT
    you may be able to spell paleontology, but you clearly are not one.
    What is your theory then? What would you teach in schools?
    How would you explain the fossils, and the massive extinction of the majority of species that have exisited on earth?

    How do explain micro evolution that is witnessed in medical labs on a daily basis?

    Please man, even the scientists who are Christians (Francis Collins types) recognise evolution as an indisputable fact. They do so because the know that evolution does not explain the ORIGIN of life, only the development of it. He then goes on a little side track, but he knows he cannot hide from the facts!
  • Paleontologist  - Halfway there GT
    Hi GT

    Two points

    you said..."you may be able to spell paleontology, but you clearly are not one."

    1) Yes, I agree 100%, I clearly cannot be a "paleontology", nobody can, as it is an area of expertise, of study. I am however a paleontologist and I think it best that you leave that area of discipline to me judging from your above statement, it is coming on a bit tricky for you, bless him...

    2) Your second point is also muddled. You need to appreciate that evolutionary theory is divided into two main areas, micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Without going into much detail on either, micro-evolution is, (and I agree personally with it), a process, most if not all scientists including Francis Collins acknowledge as fact (with a couple of worthwhile caveats to appreciate along the way). Sweeping statements that supporters of micro-evolution are supporters of Evolutionary theory in its entirety are highly inaccurate.

    In respect to macro-evolution (the most contentious of the two), the signs are clear from a paleontologist's point of view... we just aren't seeing the proof in the fossil record to uphold the theory. And Darwin himself stated that his theory at the time of publishing did not have the proof it needed to stand, but that he was confident that it would be vindicated by the fossil findings we made in the very near future and that it would be further strengthened with each new dig, well, this sadly for evolutionists has not been the case and as such, every day that passes makes it more and more difficult to support Darwin's position as the the millions, in fact billions of these cumulative proofs that are needed to vindicate Darwin's theory are simply not there. I don't know how clearer I can be on this point, there is no proof of macro-evolution from fossil records, zero. And this is the only way Darwin saw fit to attack his theory objectively. One cannot close this area of attack off now, it would be tantamount to a corruption of scientific processes.

    There has never been as much activity in my field of study as there has been over the last 50 years, in fact Darwin inspired an explosion of interest in my field of study - the growth in number of excavations has been exponential, yet the return for Darwin is still at zero, the theory loses credibility which each passing hour...

    In conclusion therefore, you must appreciate that macro-evolution theory is not fact and is still to be vindicated, and the evidence is mounting that to hold out hope for this vindication may just be more far-fetched than the concept of a God. A greater deal of faith is needed in my opinion to be a believer in this explanation than to believe in God. And all evolutionists share in this faith, in this hope, that the theory will be vindicated.

    You asked me what my theory was... well in light of the insurmountable odds against macro-evolutionary vindication, and in light of the growing evidence for an intelligent designer and if you especially consider a non-materialist's arguments as having a part to play in scientific dialogue, my opinion is that believers in a God have more going for them than most atheists would care to acknowledge.

    I hope that was helpful.
  • GT
    why not give us a few examples of how the fossil record disproves evolution? I put it to you that you have none, only examples of extinct creatures who never involved well enough to survive.

    IF there was a designer, he was wasteful, capricious, possibly bored, but certainly not thoughtful or intelligent

    I could sit all day and type out the proof for it, but my lazy solution is to point you to youtube and Richard Dawkins who covers the subject in a clear and concise manner. Buy the book if you dare.

    *****//***.youtube****/watch?v=I-QWv_0Mjq0



    Dawkins does not say there is no creator - he just says there is no evidence for one. Bring your proof, have it tested, get it published and make it viable. Believing something is so, doesn't make it true.
  • GT
    this forum could really use an edit post option
  • Paleontologist  - I am familiar with R.Dawkins
    I have his Book, "The God delusion", do you have Lennox's response to it? If so, enlighten me with your knowledge of it? I believe you don't read on both sides of the argument...

    While on Youtube, watch the two of them go face-to-face in their live debate in the US.

    My atheist friend pointed me toward it and basically added that Lennox out-argued Dawkins by his own ommission before I even listened to it. I think my mate was being nice :)

    He also reckons his points are some of the weakest made by evolutionists. He is a popular figurehead for the evolutionists and when he can script TV shows he doesn't sound that bad, but as a paleontologist, I must point out that he is no paleontologist and I wouldn't trust him to make conclusions about that field of science or any other that falls outside of his area of expertise.

    I am worried about your closing statement:
    "Bring your proof, have it tested, get it published and make it viable. Believing something is so, doesn't make it true."

    Be very careful in insinuating that published, viable arguments equate to truth...

    Your strongest point was this one: "Dawkins does not say there is no creator - he just says there is no evidence for one."

    You contradict yourself then by having said earlier..."why not give us a few examples of how the fossil record disproves evolution? I put it to you that you have none"

    And so borrowing from Dawkins I structure my response in this way: While I cannot, using physical fossil records say that there is no evolution, I can say that there is absolutely no evidence for evolution. I have maintained this position all along.

    and so, you will now see that we both believe in something and perhaps your own words should be considered in light of your contradictions in application..."Believing something is so, doesn't make it true."
  • Gordon
    You chose to skip the important middle part where I say "test it". Testing is rather important, along with peer review.


    John Lennox debate - yep saw it a while back and haven't read the book. Lennox brings nothing to the table except for his proclamation of faith. He quotes the bible continuously which is hardly helpful in supporting his case. He talks on topics such as love and hope and beauty as proof of God, all subjects that are best explained in a psychology class. Freud does a good job of it.

    I think Dawkins kicks his backside, because he deals in tangibles. He doesn't pretend to be to have answers were there are none.




    anyhow, back to the topic -

    I am not against kids learning about all religion at school (in a philosophy type setting), I am worried about teaching religion in schools.
    We know that all religions proclaim to have the final anser to life, yet we have offer 30,000 christian versions alone. Which view would you teach?

    You would do well that Jefferson originally separated Church and State to protect Christians from each other!


  • @ Gordon  - sweeping statements once more
    Not all tests need to be naturalistic, the Greeks used intuition and experience as tests too, but your brand of science dismisses it as "lower level" science, having its place in a philosophy classroom. Your brand of thinking is terribly limited and I would hate for our school kids to live in that paradigm.

    If you do not want to let concepts like love, beauty, hope enter into a discussion, you are closing the door to concepts, while although not tangible, everybody knows from their own experience, exists!

    Further, there is no historical document more credible than the bible, and quoting from it is like quoting from a sworn affidavit of a witness to an event under scrutiny. It is very USEFUL in supporting his case!
  • Democrat  - The real question
    I come into this debate a bit late, but it is clear that on both sides of the divide of those who adhere to religion and those who don't almost all energy is spent on arguing about religion per se – and a good bit on the exchange of insults – and some of the key questions posed by the original article gets lost. Questions like, why in a country where 75% of the population adhere to one religion or another, a small minority should dictate to the majority what should be allowed in schools and what not? Now that really reminds one of the apartheid-type approaches of the past!! The atheists in the debate also seem to think that natural science is the only real science, or does universities perpetuate a lie if they offer courses in “social sciences?” Fact is that religion has a very real influence on how societies operate and is therefore a large chunk of the South African reality and as the Russian example sited in the article illustrates it is a reality that can be accommodated by society – including in schools – in a way that does not infringe on he rights of even the tiniest of minorities. The key question is: How do we in a diverse secular democracy accommodate the right of freedom of religion of all citizens – including those of the majority?
  • Gav  - Re: The real question
    "Questions like, why in a country where 75% of the population adhere to one religion or another, a small minority should dictate to the majority what should be allowed in schools and what not?"

    So I have to ask, as I have pointed out argumentum ad populum fallacies a couple of times over the course of this thread, just because many (or a majority) people believe something to be true does this mean that it is in fact objectively true?

    For example, if 51% of the populace adhere to strict Sharia law, should this simple fact dictate terms for the remaining 49%, regardless of the fact that Muslims have no empirical evidence to substantiate what they say actually reflects observational reality as it exists?

    What if a majority of the people believed that the Earth was flat, should we institute action based on this belief (eg. planes may only fly a certain distance as we don't want them falling over the edge), or do you feel that science has shown this to be demonstrably false and regardless of the number of people who believe it, continue believing what empiricism illustrates?
  • Anonymous
    This is a valid point Gav.

    My response: This issue highlights the drawbacks of democracy unfortunately, having said that though, if majority of the population prefer to live that way, then we have to respect that.

    If the majority of the population want religious teaching in schools, then by democratic right, they should get it. Until those against it garner the support they need to overturn it, no matter how right or how wrong the concept is, it should stand.

    Although not perfect, democracy is still preferable to many other systems and for all its obvious shortcomings, it is still a wonderful system.

    I think Marx understood that religion would always have a place in a democracy, which is why his system was designed the way it was, to dispel all religion in favour of an atheistic society. And as long as the threat of communism hangs over our heads, even atheists I know defend freedom of religion (granted in a more general sense rather than in the realm of education) as the lesser of the two evils.

    Having said all of this, your position does insinuate that the existence of God is in fact a fallacy. There is no problem if God does exist and 49.999999% of the population are dictated to in this respect, which is why the debate always develops to does God exist?

    And the single most popular scientific alternative to God is evolution, which by Darwin's own submission, would be defeated if the fossil record did not support his predicted findings. Darwin not only left an avenue for challenge, but was kind enough to establish the argument for scientists who wished to disprove his theory. More than a hundred years later and the fossil record continues to defeat his arguments. Evolution "trumped" the religious explanation and so became the next best explanation (as long as it held together), now evolutionists cannot let go and rightly cede the top spot back to religion as evolution does not hold.

    They have become more dogmatic and bent on preserving this flawed argument than any God believing man or woman, for the simple reason that we can disprove evolution and have, while science cannot and have not and never will disprove God.

    I don't agree with the argument that Evolution is t least a material explanation while God cannot be put to the test. Evolution is still wrong! If one wished to really promote this position they should at least be honest and say, well actually, we have no idea how the world came into being, evolution should be in the history books as a good attempt, but a failure nevertheless, but it isn't relegated to this rightful place, it is promoted in the science classroom and in the biology labs etc...

    This is the biggest crime against our children.




  • Anonymous
    "Evolution is still wrong!"

    I'm interested to know why you feel this is the case.

    Especially in light of the following sentence;

    "If one wished to really promote this position they should at least be honest and say, well actually, we have no idea how the world came into being,"

    Could you please advise me which aspect of the theory of evolution concerns itself with the commencement of life?
  • Gav
    Sorry, above comment is mine but I forgot to enter my name.
  • Believer  - The great scientist
    No group in society is a more pure example of blind faith than atheists. They believe that the universe and the world as we know it today are all the result of happenstance. By the way, isn’t the story about the big bang just a theory? Maybe God is not a magician, but rather the biggest scientist of all!
  • Anonymous
    Evolution is wrong because the fossil record has disproved Darwin exactly according to the steps Darwin himself set out and would acknowledge today if he were around.

    He came up with the set of conditions that he himself would have to accept if proven, would have dismantled his theory. Did you read my entire post? It was there (two paragraphs above...)

    The second comment refers to somebody who for natural sciences reasons ignores the God explanation and holds to the best argument (in their opinion), i.e. Evolution, but they should be honest enough to say that it is still flawed (Because of the above - fossil record) and should be teached as such which then leaves a natural sciences person, a materialist etc in the position where they would have to admit that in fact they do not have a complete, full-proof explanation or put in lay-man's terms, they are clueless and have no idea!

    Regarding your final point, the overwhelming majority of evolutionists are interested in the commencement of life, which is why they continually try to "simulate" the early known world and pass electric charges through this simulated environment trying in vain to produce "life-blocks" upon which they hope to explain the origin of life and progression (evolution) to our current day environment.

    For all our smart, logical ways, we are still unable to take a combination of "dead" molecules an inject life into them, which is a serious drawback for evolutionists, and some, as a result have distanced themselves from this issue and have been proponents of your position, "We aren't concerned with that..."

    Well, how convenient, making up the rules as you go along once more - yet another desperate attempt to defend a crumbling argument.
  • Gav
    Quite sad that I have to repeat myself to this extent.

    "Could you please advise me which aspect of the theory of evolution concerns itself with the commencement of life?"
  • Chris  - Yes or no?
    Yes or no?

    Do you subscribe to one believing in a creator and simultaneously believing in evolution and that this is not a contradiction?

    You don't need to explain your position, just a yes or no out of interest?
  • Gav
    I don't think 'just yes or no' quite cuts the mustard.

    It would be dependant on the nature of what one would define as a 'creator'.

    If the definition on the table is triple O, then of course the two cannot be contradictory. An omnipotent god can do anything. But infinite is a big word with an even bigger meaning that most people simply can't grasp (and quietly at night thinking about it, it still blows me away, especially when used in relation to concepts such as the multiverse theory).

    And I think I do need to explain myself to a certain extent. I do not describe myself as an atheist and never have. To me the term is an absolute that flies in the face of what I know to be rational investigation/inductive reasoning. I describe myself as ignostic in that I am yet to hear a definition of a 'god', be it creator or otherwise, that is not internally logically inconsistent. I do understand however that there are those who use the term atheist simply because it conveys a message without having to use the word agnotisic with a host of tacked on caveats to fully explain the term to the uninitiated.

    Let me ask you a question in response. How do you know that you 'know' something?
  • Gordon
    You can dream up all types of possible scenarios for the beginning of life, but until they fall into step with the evidence (and we have a heap of it now) we can assume none of them.

    What is the problem with saying. " WE DON'T KNOW... YET"

    I suggest spending a little more time in bed with your wife on Sundays, it will make for a much happier life
  • Con-Tester  - The Real Real Question
    But evolution says nothing about “how the world came into being.” Its ontological nature aside, that is a question for cosmologists. Nor does evolution say anything about the origin of life per se, which is a question for biochemists and biophysicists. Creationists regularly conflate cosmogony, abiogenesis and evolution into a muddled ball of mythinformation.

    Evolution studies gene frequencies and distributions, and the factors that influence them. With very few exceptions made up of creationists and ID proponents, biological scientists numbering in the hundreds of thousands worldwide and many of whom are also religious, don’t debate whether evolution is true or not; they have robust debates on how evolution proceeds, its mechanisms and its features. They have studied the evidence firsthand, found it convincing and continue to do so. If evolution were scientifically only half as contentious and “disproven” as its enemies wish to paint it, this wide-ranging consensus in the relevant scientific disciplines is in dire need of plausible explanation. Conspiracy and/or mass delusion won’t quite wash because they cut anti-evolutionists equally deeply. Science, by the nature of its practices, is self-correcting. The various frauds and mistakes (Haeckel’s embryo drawings, assorted hominid relics, etc.) that anti-evolutionists are so fond of raising as if they actually disproved evolution were identified as frauds or mistakes not by anti-evolutionists but by other scientists.

    As to the argument that democratic principles should apply to school activities, it is curious that there is a drive towards resolving questions of fact by those means – argumentum ad populum, as Gav has already pointed out a few times. Is it not everyone’s wish that their children should be taught the truth as it is according to our best current knowledge? It seems silly to suppose that anyone would want to promote the idea that children should, perhaps as a manipulative ruse, be taught things that, while maybe useful in some way, are actually false. Therefore, the debate about religious practices in schools will inevitably gravitate towards the question of religious precepts’ truth.

    And why is this always so divisive and animated when the topic of evolution is raised? Why aren’t democratic principles invoked to defend, say, the notion that Pi, as indicated in the bible, is three rather than 3.1415926535…? Why aren’t democratic principles invoked to defend the god-decreed duty to stone to death disobedient children and homosexuals and to kill witches? The “new dispensation” won’t quite do it either because Genesis and its creation accounts about a wrathful god are part of the old one.

    Could it be that evolution, a completely mindless and undirected process, seriously threatens to undermine humanity’s alleged specialness in the universe? Is that what this whole argument is REALLY about?
  • Chris  - Fair points
    Your pintabout being taught the truth, by your own admission would need to exclude science then as it is constantly being redefined and "improved" meaning that we anticipate changes all the time and thus cannot teach our kids scientific stances least they be debunked.

    Take for example all those who were taught about Haekel's embryo drawings as truth. Some education that was, I feel pretty betrayed and very angry with the nonsense I was made to belive by text books and educators as "truth" or "fact".

    And the reason why we always bring it up is to show that science is not a great producer of truth. History is the best indicator of future performance and in my book, science has a long way to go before it can credibly be dubbed the teachers of truth. No, if you are so interested in the truth being taught to our kids, science would have to be scrapped from the syllabus, its track record is too poor!

    It must work both ways Con-tester.
  • Con-Tester  - Science on Truth
    So besides evolution and possibly certain current theories of cosmogony, which parts of science do you reckon as untrue (in the sense of “discordant with observable facts”) and on what grounds do you hold this view? Because as I look at the world around me, I see a great many successes of science in such things as health, convenience, technology and in illuminating how the world is rather than how we would like it to be.

    Furthermore, science doesn’t deal in absolute and immutable truth, and no normal scientist would dare venture the claim that it does so. That is what religions pretend to do. It is why I wrote “children should be taught the truth as it is ACCORDING TO OUR BEST CURRENT KNOWLEDGE” (emphasis added). Nor is science just a collection of facts and factoids describing the world. Science is a method for winnowing fact from fantasy, itself probably driven ultimately by a desire for greater security through deeper knowledge about the world: knowing more about one’s world makes it a more regular, predictable and thus safer place. As I indicated earlier, science is self-correcting. When it makes an educated guess about how something appears to work and that guess later turns out to be wrong or incomplete or insufficient, science adapts the guess accordingly so that it gives a better account of what has been observed. Sometimes the guess is so completely off that it has to be jettisoned completely – for example, the luminiferous aether or phlogiston. More often, the initial guess is seen to be part of a greater whole – for example, Newtonian mechanics is a limiting case of Einsteinian relativity, or Maxwell’s electromagnetism is a limiting case of quantum electrodynamics.

    A little thought will reveal that we do this kind of thing informally and quite naturally in day-to-day dealings anyway. For example, when the phone rings you may have an idea who the caller might be. If your guess turns out wrong, you revise it. Where’s the shame in that? Or, you go shopping in search of some or other unusual item. You might have some ideas concerning the item’s cost as well as what sort of shop might stock the item. If your assumptions prove wrong, you change them. Or, a mechanic might be in search of an obscure fault with a car. Without a clear diagnosis, he will test various guesses against reality until he finds the correct one. Many other examples could be found that show the same essential features. Science has merely formalised the process a bit more rigorously.

    The point of all of the above is to show that the expectation that science must always furnish unassailable answers is wholly unreasonable because it rests on a profound misapprehension of what science is about. Science is not a body of ironclad and unchallengeable facts held together by a few select just-so stories. Still, science has delivered many answers that it would be simply perverse to accept as truth despite a tiny residual uncertainty about them. The exact phrasing escapes me, but Carl Sagan put it approximately thus: “The methods of science, as stodgy and grumpy as they may seem, are far more important than the findings of science.”
  • Chris  - The same goes for religion...
    "...that science must always furnish unassailable answers is wholly unreasonable because it rests on a profound misapprehension of what science is about. Science is not a body of ironclad and unchallengeable facts held together by a few select just-so stories."

    The exact phrasing escapes me, but Carl Sagan put it approximately thus: “The methods of science, as stodgy and grumpy as they may seem, are far more important than the findings of science.” "

    And so in the same way, you shouldn't rest your assumptions on your misapprehension of Christianity, there is a lot more going on than you care to find out, than you care to understand. This is all to apparent to any Christian reading your posts.
  • Con-Tester
    But I WAS a Christian for a long time before I became an apostate and an atheist because, in a nutshell, religion is a premise whereas atheism is a conclusion, and surely here will come the N.T.S.F.

    Are you now intimating that Christianity admits to errors of doctrine and canon and then goes on to correct them? If so, could you give a few examples of this process please? If not, please explain what the above is supposed to mean.

    Quite besides, you haven’t actually answered the rather important questions posed in the first sentence of my prior post. Please do so.
  • Gordon
    I forgot to add - Lennox does not deny evolution, in fact he supports it. Explain that one...
  • Paleontologist  - there is macro and micro
    Micro-evolution once more...
  • Gordon
    no, he quite clearly supports macro-evolution as he knows that he can't dodge the facts when talking to a educated audience. (the same for Francis Collins)
    He gets around it by saying that DNA has clear signs of intelligent design.

    Clearly the Christians cannot agree. Some want the whole story, some want the good parts of the story and others will manipulate anything they must to get the story that suits them.

    As someone posted earlier - you guys will just keep shifting the goalposts, a true model of honesty and integrity.

  • Chris  - Lennow admission?
    Please give the exact reference for Lennox's agreement with Macroevolution, I have never seen this or heard this admission...
  • Mandy  - This is very interesting...from Conservapedia
    As far as public support for the evolutionary viewpoint, an article by CBS News begins with the observation that, "Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved."[4] A 2005 poll by the Louis Finkelstein Institute for Social and Religious Research found that 60% of American medical doctors reject Darwinism, stating that they do not believe humans evolved through natural processes alone.[5] Thirty-eight percent of the American medical doctors polled agreed with the statement that "Humans evolved naturally with no supernatural involvement." [6] The study also reported that 1/3 of all medical doctors favor the theory of intelligent design over evolution.[7] In addition, there is evidence to suggest that the evolutionary position is gradually losing public support in the United States.[8] The prestigious science journal Science reported the following in 2006 concerning the United States: "The percentage of people in the country who accept the idea of evolution has declined from 45 in 1985 to 40 in 2005. Meanwhile the fraction of Americans unsure about evolution has soared from 7 per cent in 1985 to 21 per cent last year."[9] In January 2006, the BBC reported concerning Britain:
    “ Just under half of Britons accept the theory of evolution as the best description for the development of life, according to an opinion poll.

    Furthermore, more than 40% of those questioned believe that creationism or intelligent design (ID) should be taught in school science lessons.[10]

    The theory of evolution posits a process of transformation from simple life forms to more complex life forms, which has never been observed or duplicated in a laboratory.[12][13] Although not a creation scientist, Swedish geneticist Dr. Nils Heribert-Nilsson, Professor of Botany at the University of Lund in Sweden, stated: "My attempts to demonstrate Evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed. At least, I should hardly be accused of having started from a preconceived antievolutionary standpoint."[14]

    The fossil record is often used as evidence in the creation versus evolution controversy. The fossil record does not support the theory of evolution and is one of the flaws in the theory of evolution.[15] In 1981, there were at least a hundred million fossils that were catalogued and identified in the world's museums.[16] Despite the aforementioned large number of fossils available to scientists in 1981, evolutionist Mark Ridley, who currently serves as a professor of zoology at Oxford, was forced to confess: "In any case, no real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation."[17] The fossil record will be discussed in greater detail in regards to why the fossil record does not support the theory of evolution and why the fossil record is counter evidence to the evolutionary position.
  • Gordon
    Mandy - you do yourself a great disservice quoting american opinion poles as if they make a difference to the facts of the case. Many american's believe in UFO's and that aliens created crop circles. It doesn't make it true.

    Like many of our constitutional freedoms in SA, some things are too important to be left to a popular vote. Thankfully the federal courts have told those school bodies in the USA to sit down and shut-up because their position is dangerous to the future of america as a country. What progress would there have been in medicine in the last 50 years if the doctors had sat around praying instead of working on the human genome and stem cells.
  • Chris  - cool site Mandy, also found this
    Recent clamour to revise the modern evolutionary synthesis

    See also: Recent clamor to revise the modern evolutionary synthesis and Theory of evolution and little consensus

    One of the more popular evolutionary paradigms among evolutionary scientists is the modern evolutionary synthesis. The modern evolutionary synthesis is a school of evolutionary thought which incorporates the concepts of natural selection, mutations, and studies in population genetics.[2]

    In 2005, Massimo Pigliucci, in a book review for the prestigious science journal Nature, wrote: "The clamour to revise neo-darwinism is becoming so loud that hopefully most practising evolutionary biologists will begin to pay attention. It has been said that science often makes progress not because people change their minds, but because the old ones die off and the new generation is more open to novel ideas."[3] In July of 2008, Elizabeth Pennisi wrote in the prestigous science journal Science: "Seventy years ago, evolutionary biologists hammered out the modern synthesis to bring Darwin's ideas in line with current insights into how organisms change through time. Some say it's time for Modern Synthesis 2.0
  • Paleontologist  - Happy to oblige
    First a collection of some of my favourite quotes from proponents of both sides including Darwin and Dawkins:

    1. "The gaps in the record are real"

    "The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of a record of any important branching is quite phenomenal. Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, species seldom and genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement of one by another, and change is more or less abrupt (John and Miklos 1988, 307)." (Wesson, Robert G. [political scientist and philosopher], "Beyond Natural Selection," [1991], MIT Press: Cambridge MA, 1994, reprint, p45). [top]

    2. ... it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained"

    "In the early days of evolutionary paleontology it was assumed that the major gaps would be filled in by further discoveries, and even, falsely, that some discoveries had already filled them. As it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained, despite wonderful progress in finding the members of lesser transitional groups and progressive lines, it was no longer satisfactory to impute this absence of objective data entirely to chance. The failure of paleontology to produce such evidence was so keenly felt that a few disillusioned naturalists even decided that the theory of organic evolution, or of general organic continuity of descent, was wrong, after all." (Simpson, George Gaylord [late Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University], "Tempo and Mode in Evolution," [1944], Columbia University Press: New York NY, 1949, Third Printing, p.115). [top]

    3. "... a disturbing lack of ... transitional forms between the major groups of organisms"

    "Darwin predicted that the fossil record should show a reasonably smooth continuum of ancestor-descendant pairs with a satisfactory number of intermediates between major groups Darwin even went so far as to say that if this were not found in the fossil record, his general theory of evolution would be in serious jeopardy. Such smooth transitions were not found in Darwin's time, and he explained this in part on the basis of an incomplete geologic record and in part on the lack of study of that record. We are now more than a hundred years after Darwin and the situation is little changed. Since Darwin a tremendous expansion of paleontological knowledge has taken place, and we know much more about the fossil record than was known in his time, but the basic situation is not much different. We actually may have fewer examples of smooth transition than we had in Darwin's time because some of the old examples have turned out to be invalid when studied in more detail. To be sure, some new intermediate or transitional forms have been found, particularly among land vertebrates. But if Darwin were writing today, he would probably still have to cite a disturbing lack of missing links or transitional forms between the major groups of organisms." (Raup, David M. [Professor of Geology, University of Chicago], "Geological and Paleontological Arguments," in Godfrey L.R., ed., "Scientists Confront Creationism," W.W. Norton: New York NY, 1983, p.156). [top]

    4. "What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin"

    "Evolution at the level of populations and species might, in some cases, appear as nearly continuous change accompanied by divergence to occupy much of the available morphospace. However, this is certainly not true for long-term, large-scale evolution, such as that of the metazoan phyla, which include most of the taxa that formed the basis for the evolutionary synthesis. The most striking features of large-scale evolution are the extremely rapid divergence of lineages near the time of their origin, followed by long periods in which basic body plans and ways of life are retained. What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types." (Carroll, Robert L. [Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology, Redpath Museum, McGill University, Canada ], "Towards a new evolutionary synthesis," Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 2000, Vol. 15, pp.27-32, p.27). [top]

    5. Cambrian Explosion
    * "... if the theory be true ... before the lowest Cambrian stratum ... the world swarmed with living creatures"

    "Consequently, if the theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Cambrian stratum was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably far longer than, the whole interval from the Cambrian age to the present day; and that during these vast periods the world swarmed with living creatures. ... To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I ca...
  • Paleontologist  - Happy to oblige
    First a collection of some of my favourite quotes from proponents of both sides including Darwin and Dawkins:

    1. "The gaps in the record are real"

    "The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of a record of any important branching is quite phenomenal. Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, species seldom and genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement of one by another, and change is more or less abrupt (John and Miklos 1988, 307)." (Wesson, Robert G. [political scientist and philosopher], "Beyond Natural Selection," [1991], MIT Press: Cambridge MA, 1994, reprint, p45). [top]

    2. ... it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained"

    "In the early days of evolutionary paleontology it was assumed that the major gaps would be filled in by further discoveries, and even, falsely, that some discoveries had already filled them. As it became more and more evident that the great gaps remained, despite wonderful progress in finding the members of lesser transitional groups and progressive lines, it was no longer satisfactory to impute this absence of objective data entirely to chance. The failure of paleontology to produce such evidence was so keenly felt that a few disillusioned naturalists even decided that the theory of organic evolution, or of general organic continuity of descent, was wrong, after all." (Simpson, George Gaylord [late Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University], "Tempo and Mode in Evolution," [1944], Columbia University Press: New York NY, 1949, Third Printing, p.115). [top]

    3. "... a disturbing lack of ... transitional forms between the major groups of organisms"

    "Darwin predicted that the fossil record should show a reasonably smooth continuum of ancestor-descendant pairs with a satisfactory number of intermediates between major groups Darwin even went so far as to say that if this were not found in the fossil record, his general theory of evolution would be in serious jeopardy. Such smooth transitions were not found in Darwin's time, and he explained this in part on the basis of an incomplete geologic record and in part on the lack of study of that record. We are now more than a hundred years after Darwin and the situation is little changed. Since Darwin a tremendous expansion of paleontological knowledge has taken place, and we know much more about the fossil record than was known in his time, but the basic situation is not much different. We actually may have fewer examples of smooth transition than we had in Darwin's time because some of the old examples have turned out to be invalid when studied in more detail. To be sure, some new intermediate or transitional forms have been found, particularly among land vertebrates. But if Darwin were writing today, he would probably still have to cite a disturbing lack of missing links or transitional forms between the major groups of organisms." (Raup, David M. [Professor of Geology, University of Chicago], "Geological and Paleontological Arguments," in Godfrey L.R., ed., "Scientists Confront Creationism," W.W. Norton: New York NY, 1983, p.156). [top]

    4. "What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin"

    "Evolution at the level of populations and species might, in some cases, appear as nearly continuous change accompanied by divergence to occupy much of the available morphospace. However, this is certainly not true for long-term, large-scale evolution, such as that of the metazoan phyla, which include most of the taxa that formed the basis for the evolutionary synthesis. The most striking features of large-scale evolution are the extremely rapid divergence of lineages near the time of their origin, followed by long periods in which basic body plans and ways of life are retained. What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types." (Carroll, Robert L. [Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology, Redpath Museum, McGill University, Canada ], "Towards a new evolutionary synthesis," Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 2000, Vol. 15, pp.27-32, p.27). [top]

    5. Cambrian Explosion
    * "... if the theory be true ... before the lowest Cambrian stratum ... the world swarmed with living creatures"

    "Consequently, if the theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Cambrian stratum was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably far longer than, the whole interval from the Cambrian age to the present day; and that during these vast periods the world swarmed with living creatures. ... To the question why we do not find rich fossiliferous deposits belonging to these assumed earliest periods prior to the Cambrian system, I ca...
  • Con-Tester  - Oh Dear - Found Out!
    I now seriously doubt that you are a palaeontologist. Instead of answering the question (quite apart from posting the same thing three times), you have simply copied and pasted creationist Stephen E. Jones’s quote mines, as published on his site. These quote-mines merely illustrate what is in any case known, namely that the fossil record is hardly ideal.

    See *****//members.iinet****.au/~sejones/fsslrc03.html

    In case it isn’t manifestly obvious, this little subterfuge illustrates the basic dishonesty that cretinists and IDherents not only need to, but are also entirely happy to engage in to preserve their myths.

    So I’ll ask you again, as an supposed palaeontologist, whether this remarkable contention, i.e. the fossil record allegedly refuting Darwinism, has been published in any respected peer-reviewed scientific journals? If yes, please cite some references as to where one can read about it because it would be a highly significant finding. If no, please explain why not, and also when and in which journal(s) one can expect it to be published.

    To clarify, that would be a paper or six that states clearly and unambiguously that the fossil record refutes the neo-Darwinian synthesis.
  • Mandy  - More reading
    Dr. Pilbeam wrote a review of Richard Leakey's book Origins in the journal American Scientist and he stated the following:
    “ ...perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy.[92] ”

    Dr. Pilbeam wrote the following regarding the theory of evolution and paleoanthropology:
    “ I am also aware of the fact that, at least in my own subject of paleoanthropology, "theory" - heavily influenced by implicit ideas almost always dominates "data". ....Ideas that are totally unrelated to actual fossils have dominated theory building, which in turn strongly influence the way fossils are interpreted.[92] ”

    Evolutionist and Harvard professor Richard Lewontin wrote in 1995 that "Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some paleontologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor...."[93] In the September 2005 issue of National Geographic, Joel Achenbach asserted that human evolution is a "fact" but he also candidly admitted that the field of paleoanthropology "has again become a rather glorious mess."[94][95] In the same National Geographic article Harvard paleoanthropologist Dan Lieberman states, "We're not doing a very good job of being honest about what we don't know...".[95]

    In regards to the pictures of the supposed ancestors of man featured in science journals and the news media Boyce Rensberger wrote in the journal Science the following regarding their highly speculative nature:
    “ Unfortunately, the vast majority of artist's conceptions are based more on imagination than on evidence. But a handful of expert natural-history artists begin with the fossil bones of a hominid and work from there…. Much of the reconstruction, however, is guesswork. Bones say nothing about the fleshy parts of the nose, lips, or ears. Artists must create something between an ape and a human being; the older the specimen is said to be, the more apelike they make it.... Hairiness is a matter of pure conjecture.[96][97] ”

    In addition, the science magazine New Scientist reported the following:
    “ "A five million-year-old piece of bone that was thought to be a collarbone of a humanlike creature is actually part of a dolphin rib according to an anthropologist at the University of California-Berkeley." - Ian Anderson[98][99] ”
    Dr. Tim White, anthropologist at the University of California-Berkeley, gave the name "Flipperpithecus" to a supposed "humanoid species" arising from a fossil find that is most likely part of a dolphin's rib.

    Dr. Tim White, anthropologist at the University of California-Berkeley, likened the incident on par with the "Nebraska man" and "Piltdown Man" incidents.[98] Dr. White stated regarding the fossil find, "Seldom has a bone been hyped as much as this one."[98] Anthropologist Dr. Noel Boaz from New York University who made the original classification of the fossil has countered, "I have not gone any further than the evidence allowed."[98][100] Dr. Boaz described the fossil find and defended his stance regarding the fossil find in the journals Nature, the American Journal of Physical Anthropology and Natural History. However, at a meeting of physical anthropologist his fellow anthropologist were skeptical of the find some stating that at first glance the bone looks nothing like a collar bone.[100] Dr. White stated that "to be a clavicle, the specimen should have an S...curve, but it does not.[98] Dr. White also stated the blunder may force a rethinking of theories among evolutionary theorists on when the line of man's ancestors separated from that of apes.[98]

    Dr. White added "The problem with a lot of anthropologists is that they want so much to find a hominid that any scrap of bone becomes a hominid bone."[98] Dr. White has dubbed the "humanoid species" arising from the fossil find "Flipperpithecus".[100]

    Creation scientists concur with Dr. Pilbeam regarding the speculative nature of the field of paleoanthropology and assert there is no compelling evidence in the field of paleoanthropology for the various theories of human evolution.[101][102][103]

    Dr. Pilbeam wrote a review of Richard Leakey's book Origins in the journal American Scientist and he stated the following:
    “ ...perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals mor...
  • Gordon
    We can spend all day going over the evidence, but relating it back to the topic is near impossible on this forum. I will say that the bible doesn't even attempt to answer these questions, so why teach it to kids.

    As the only true word (your claim, not mine) surely there should be a mention of all these species and all the playfulness of god before he decided to get a grip and get involved with man only 3000 years ago.

    Why do you think he let humans die in child birth or from basic infections for so long before granting us the knowledge of germ theory? Why did he allow the suppression of ideas in during the middle ages in his name, if he gave us the brains to progress?
    If we are made in his image, does he also have redundant parts such as tonsils and an appendix?

    If this was a case of one just area where religion missed the boat, it would be fair to offer it the benefit of the doubt. Sadly it misses at almost every turn. It offers nothing in terms of progress and it seems we have progressed as a species only when we free ourselves from the shackles it forces on humanity. IE - we have moved on in spite of religion, not because of it and this should be taught to kids!


  • Mandy  - More reading...
    Secular researcher Richard Milton summarized the current world situation: "Darwinism has never had much appeal for science outside of the English-speaking world, and has never appealed much to the American public (although popular with the U.S. scientific establishment in the past). However, its ascendancy in science, in both Britain and America, has been waning for several decades as its grip has weakened in successive areas: geology; paleontology; embryology; comparative anatomy. Now even geneticists are beginning to have doubts. It is only in mainstream molecular biology and zoology that Darwinism retains serious enthusiastic supporters. As growing numbers of scientists begin to drift away from neo-Darwinist ideas, the revision of Darwinism at the public level is long overdue, and is a process that I believe has already started.
  • Gordon  - @ Mandy
    Richard Milton is not a secular researcher. He is a pseudoscience quack with not a single scientific paper to his name. Quoting him is really scraping the barrel.

    A scientific review of Milton's book The Facts of Life suggests it is: "twaddle that betrays, on almost every page, complete and total pig-ignorance of the subject at hand."

    another
    "With selective evidence and twisted logic, Milton (Alternative Science, Inner Traditions, 1996) attempts to discredit the concept of organic evolution. Although raising important questions about interpretation and methodology, he fails to overturn the neo-Darwinian framework as he attacks as "myths" the claims of modern science concerning the age of this planet, the geological column with its fossil record, and even the biological relationship between the great apes and our own species. He ignores most of the recent evolutionary literature (especially in paleoanthropology and primatology), and his chapters are full of dated illustrations, misleading generalizations, and glaring errors, e.g., "the evidence for humankind's own evolution is actually nonexistent" and "Today, 'Java man' is thought to be an extinct, giant gibbonlike creature and not connected to humans." His own interpretation of earth history remains ambiguous, leaving the reader to wonder about what hidden motive underscores this morass of falsehoods."

    Pay your money, take your choice.
  • Mandy  - And this?
    Atheism needs evolution to escape from any implications regarding a creator. If one starts with Darwinism, certainly it is easy to escape from any obligation to God. Those opposed to their reasoning are branded as obscurantists who are trying to intrude religion into science.

    Dr. Emery S. Dunfee, former professor of physics at the University of Maine at Farmington:

    One wonders why, with all the evidence, the (Godless) theory of evolution still persists. One major reason is that many people have a sort of vested interest in this theory. Jobs would be lost, loss of face would result, text books would need to be eliminated or revised.

    Evolutionist Richard Lewontin in The New York Review, January, 1997, page 31:

    We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of the failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so-stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

    Columnist George Caylor once interviewed a molecular biologist for an article entitled “The Biologist,” that ran on February 17, 2000, in The Ledger (Lynchburg, VA), and is in part reprinted here as a conversation between "G: (Caylor) and “J” (the scientist). We joint the piece in the middle of a discussion about the complexity of human code.

    G: "Do you believe that the information evolved?"

    J: "George, nobody I know in my profession believes it evolved. It was engineered by genius beyond genius, and such information could not have been written any other way. The paper and ink did not write the book! Knowing what we know, it is ridiculous to think otherwise."

    G: "Have you ever stated that in a public lecture, or in any public writings?"

    J: "No, I just say it evolved. To be a molecular biologist requires one to hold onto two insanities at all times. One, it would be insane to believe in evolution when you can see the truth for yourself. Two, it would be insane to say you don't believe evolution. All government work, research grants, papers, big college lectures—everything would stop. I'd be out of a job, or relegated to the outer fringes where I couldn't earn a decent living.

    G: I hate to say it, but that sounds intellectually dishonest.

    J: The work I do in genetic research is honorable. We will find the cures to many of mankind's worst diseases. But in the meantime, we have to live with the elephant in the living room.
    Copyrighted Photograph

    G: What elephant?

    G: Creation design. It's like an elephant in the living room. It moves around, takes up space, loudly trumpets, bumps into us, knocks things over, eats a ton of hay, and smells like an elephant. And yet we have to swear it isn't there!

    Dr. John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research:

    [Scientists] see the evidence for creation, and they see it clearly, but peer pressure, financial considerations, political correctness, and a religious commitment to naturalism force them to look the other way and insist they see nothing. And so, the illogical origins myth of modern society perpetuates itself.
  • Gordon
    Mandy - you are too funny -
    John Morris is the nutcase who has tried to convince the world that dinosaurs and man coexisted. He is a young earth creationist, the worst kind of science fraud!

    On the Pluxey River dinos Massimo Pigliucci, citing various volumes of research wrote "there is no controversy surrounding the prints, only the creationists' stubborn refusal to bow to the evidence.

    From the creator
    My grandfather was a very good sculptor," said Zana Douglas, from the Adams family who found many of Glen Rose’s real dinosaur tracks.[2] She explained that in the 1930s and the Depression, Glen Rose residents made money by making moonshine and selling dinosaur fossils.[2] The fossils were bought for $15 to $30 and when the supply ran low, George Adams, Zana's grandfather, "just carved more, some with human footprints thrown in.


    I would strongly suggest you stop quoting nutjobs.
  • Mark
    Keep getting everyone's posts!! arghhgh!... just changing a comment to "do not notify", sick of reading the "give me a reference" - "oh that is a bad reference" approach of all the atheists, what a waste of time, the lot of you.

    Every person that either side can quote can be shown up in one or two areas, that's not a case for refuting everything they say. Engage with the direct content at hand...unless you can't... Bye again!
  • Objective  - ostrich approach
    "sick of reading the "give me a reference" - "oh that is a bad reference" approach of all the atheists, what a waste of time, the lot of you."

    Yeh better bury your head in the sand than face the facts. Will you surface again when someone quotes Gen. 1:1 as proof for creation and the existence of a god??
  • Francois  - You poor rock worshipping atheists
    You can refer all your theories to evidence based on hard fact, the only problem is how often did you had to change your "Facts" when your theories contradicted one another.
    Why don't you try the TRUTH.

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    If you can master the art of listening with your heart and not your intellect only then will you discover the truth.

    Joh 18:37b Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    My advice to your confusion is go for the Truth He will set you free.
  • Taryne  - Comments closed.
    Comments on this article are officially closed.
    Thank you for all your input we received, much appreciated.

    Taryne
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